Ban lead bullets?

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by RWebb

the problem is that lead causes a bunch of sub-lethal effects; not just death

worse, humans eat animals that ingest lead, and some of thsoe sub-lethal effects show up in the humans...

I don't know exactly how bad a problem this is - my guess is that no one knows for sure.

We'll see what happens.

But let's scare the hell out of people while going after firearms by going after bullets...

Randy, is it possible for you to think government can overstep the boundary of common sense?

[Bill Douglas]

Is a FMJ (full metal jacket) bullet copper over steel, or copper over lead? I had always thought it was lead but I suspect I'm learning something new here.

[cel]

At one time I thought the EPA did good things about 10% of the time, now they are nothing more than the police for the administration. Its time to BAN the EPA.

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

Certain steel and copper-jacketed bullets ARE banned, under the guise of "armor piercing". So, they ban lead bullets and make steel/copper bullets illegal...we'll all be shooting AirSoft pellets soon.

Only AP Pistol ammo is illegal, IIRC. AP and (Non-AP)Steel core rifle ammo is widely available, as is surplus AP ammo.

Most cheap surplus ammo is steel core, as is a lot of the inexpensive new ammo coming out of the former Warsaw Pact countries.

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Is a FMJ (full metal jacket) bullet copper over steel, or copper over lead? I had always thought it was lead but I suspect I'm learning something new here.

Most FMJ handgun ammo is lead, but FMJ rifle ammo could go either way. The jacket is normally gilding metal, which is a copper zinc alloy.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by cel

At one time I thought the EPA did good things about 10% of the time, now they are nothing more than the tool for the administration. Its time to BAN the EPA.

Had to fix that.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by cgarr

Where does lead come from?

Lol. Well done.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by RWebb

the problem is that lead causes a bunch of sub-lethal effects; not just death

worse, humans eat animals that ingest lead, and some of thsoe sub-lethal effects show up in the humans...

I don't know exactly how bad a problem this is - my guess is that no one knows for sure.

We'll see what happens.

Actually, I do believe most ill affects are non-lethal. Good point.

Still, the most affected wildlife seems to be waterfowl and other marsh dwellers. Not from the stuff that hits them (non fatally, so they escape the hunter), but the stuff they ingest along with the soft marsh grass and whatnot from the bottom of the pond. Like I said earlier, even if a hunter kills a bird, most of the shot flies off into the distance, to settle in the marsh. Even hunters grudgingly acknowledge this is a problem. It will be for generations to come, even with a now couple of decade old ban on lead shot for waterfowl.

Where the argument crosses into incredibility is when it turns to big game ammunition. There simply is not anywhere near the volume expended as compared to bird shot, by orders of magnitude. And the bullets left behind are not inadvertently ingested by anything. Hell, a small animal could undoubtedly spend its life actually looking for bullets to eat and probably never find even a single one. It's just a whole different situation than we are confronted with in the duck marshes.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

...

Randy, is it possible for you to think government can overstep the boundary of common sense?

Don't be silly Paul. You know that I fight govt. when it steps outside those bounds all the time.

[RWebb]

re: Where does lead come from?

It is buried deep in rocks and has to be smelted out after it is mined. There is no comparison to the issues here.


Jeff - I would advise you, and others, to keep up on this and submit comments to EPA if they do move forward with this at some point. They have to take comments from the public and then refute them before enacting a rule. I'd emphasize the bullet vs. shot issue, as well as the big game and terrestrial vs. march issues.

[Bill Douglas]

Thanks Emcon. I suspected my .223 ammo had a steel core as it takes a pretty big chunk of concrete out of the backstop I use for target shooting.

[sammyg2]

Seems that the people of the United States were able to overcome their enemies once again, for now. This isn't over!

EPA Rejects Calls to Ban Lead in Ammo
Published August 27, 2010
Reuters

The EPA has denied a petition filed by environmental activists seeking to ban lead in ammunition.

The Environmental Protection Agency has denied a petition filed by environmental activists seeking to ban lead in ammunition, saying such regulation is beyond the agency's authority.

The agency's decision, announced Friday shortly after FoxNews.com published its report on the issue, sided with hunters and fishermen who had argued that the such regulations weren't allowed under the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976.

"EPA is taking action on many fronts to address major sources of lead in our society, such as eliminating childhood exposures to lead," the agency said in a written statement. "However, EPA was not and is not considering taking action on whether the lead content in hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife."

A coalition of conservation groups had filed its petition earlier this month arguing that the use of lead in ammo and fishing tackle is poisoning the nation's lakes, ponds and forests and asking the EPA to ban the "manufacture, processing and distribution" of lead shot, bullets and fishing.

According to the petitioners, who include the Center for Biological Diversity and the American Bird Conservancy, up to 20 million birds and other animals are killed each year due to lead poisoning in the United States, and at least 75 wild bird species -- including bald eagles, ravens and endangered California condors -- are poisoned by spent lead ammunition. They say roughly 3,000 tons of lead are expelled into U.S. hunting grounds annually, with another 80,000 tons released at shooting ranges, and another 4,000 tons of lead fishing lures and sinkers are lost in ponds and streams.

At least 75 wild bird species, including the American bald eagle, are poisoned by spent lead ammunition, conservationists say. Sportsmen, meanwhile, cite recent statistics indicating that the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles in the U.S. have increased by more than 700 percent from 1981 through 2006.

But sportsmen don't want anyone tinkering with the tools of their trade.

The Toxic Substances Control Act allows the EPA to regulate "chemical substances" under certain circumstances, but Congress explicitly excluded from regulation any article subject to excise taxes -- including pistols, revolvers, firearms, shells and cartridges.

Chris Cox, executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, objected to the pettion, saying the conservationists were trying to circumvent this rule by suggesting that while ammunition itself is exempt from regulation, the chemical components of the ammo and fishing lures -- specifically, the lead -- can fall under the EPA's jurisdiction.

But environmental activists like Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy stated that the petitioners waited to submit their request until nontoxic alternatives such as steel, copper and alloy became readily available.

"Ammunition itself cannot be regulated [under the Act], but the components itself can be regulated," Fry said in an interview before the EPA's decision was announced. "In other words, you cannot ban ammunition, but you can require nontoxic ammunition. ... We're not trying to ban handgun ammunition. This is strictly a toxicity issue, with lead poisoning wildlife."