What Montanans Really Think of their Wolves
 

Disclaimer: I have no idea if this really is in Montana, if those are really wolves, if that's real snow, or if that's a real rifle. I'm sure if it is, the gentleman in the photo had all proper licenses, tags, and permits required. He is only covering his face because it is very cold outside.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1294343922.jpg

Cool!! We shoot em whenever we can in AK they are beautiful but really hammer the other wildlife

The Other White Meat !

They are destroying our beautiful game animal population.


We have a season pretty restrictive

That pic is from the Northwest Territories not here.

Coyotes
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1294346578.jpg

I would like to go coyote hunting, but I don't like shooting animals I can't eat. And like hell I'm eating a yote.

Sick. And offensive. To me, anyways.

Most people don't realize that if you take away the wolves, the "other wildlife" will breed at exponential rates and overrun darn near everything, and eat every plant... then you have starving herds of everything and garbage cans full of moose and raccoons.
Wolves are nature's population control.

The second one looks like a big Pomeranian!

I'm not anti hunt..
if you eat or can make a living..
but..
wolves glean the weak and feeble first..
as for having a restrictive hunting season..
they have a restrictive hunting area ...

I'd rather see some folks like V or P hanging instead of those pelts

Rika

Thanks, Rika. That too.

suggest you talk to a biologist

This is an emotional issue for many, there is no doubt about that. I'm rather ambivilent beyond insisting we allow those who are truly trained professionals, acknowledged experts in their field, determine management policies. Such has never been the case with wolves. They have always been managed by the courts, driven by lawsuits from emotional people with no training in wildlife biology or management. Emotional politics have taken the place of sound management.

Phil Shoemaker, holder of a very much coveted (and very hard earned) Alaska Master Guide license, recently wrote of his perspective on wolves in Successful Hunter. He had some very astonishing numbers relative to fawn, kid, and calf survival in Alaska. I wish I had them in front of me but, since I don't, I'll go from memory.

From what I remember, he stated that biologists believe a healthy, sustaining herd ideally averaged somewhere right around a 15 to 20% survival rate for its newborn in any given year. Under 15% was cause for concern in that the herd was no longer even sustaining its numbers. Under 10% meant the herd was dying off and quite possibly could not recover.

High wolf population areas within Alaska typically dip under a 5% survival rate for the offspring of prey species. Think about that for a moment. That is well under the "grave danger" threshold of newborn survival. Alaskans simply will not put up with that. They go into action and start killing wolves. They are allowed to manage their populations at the state level, with real population numbers to guide their decisions.

Those in the lower 48 are not allowed to do that. States with wolf populations are not allowed to manage them along with the rest of their wildlife. They are managed by lawsuit, not game biology. Wolf advocates had target numbers they were hoping to achieve when this whole reintroduction thing started. We have now greatly exceeded those numbers, and yet they still want more. Game biologists say we should de-list them and open them up to state management. Wolf supporters respond with an adamant "no", and return to court to block any such action. They want even more wolves. Their targets have been surpassed by several fold, yet they want even more.

The end result is that affected elk and deer herds are dying off. Numbers are "alarmingly low" in affected areas according to wildlife managers in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and other affected states. Wolf proponents point out (and rightly so) that elk and deer numbers are actually up accross the west. Yes, that is true - if you include all elk and deer, most of which are in unaffected areas. Places where there are no wolves.

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that herds living in wolf recovery areas are being decimated by a wolf population that now vastly exceeds even their proponents' stated targets. It's time to turn their management over to the same state game biologists that manage the rest of their wildlife. Yes, that would mean seasons on wolves. That would mean hunters going in to control population levels so that all wildlife is sustainable. That would mean sound game management practices would trump emotion. What is so bad about that?

I Have talked to many State Biologists ! They agree, The Impact is irrefutable

Ranchers too. The MT FWP has known this for a long time Mid 90's

This is a problem that most people in other parts of the country are not exposed to. This is a fight with the Fed's plain and simple. The State Fish Wildlife and Park were the ones that reported the Elk declines in the first place.

I respect the wolf, We just have too many of them.

Wolves tend to get the old,sick,injured,slow, & young.

Hunters tend to take the prime.

Please send some to Northen Virginia. And a handful to Summit Point in W Va!

heres my 1st hand experience.................1st wolves are cool. 2nd seeing them is cool 3rd every hunt unit i have hunted/fished in with wolves since im a native now HAS LESS GAME! hmmmmm wonder why?

4th unit 27 that includes alpine az. IS DEVOID OF ANY DEER or ANTELOPEZZZZZ, and this so happens to be smack dab in the fed wolf recovery area. and yes after spending (10) thats TEN DAYS in there, we did not so much as SEE (1) deer or antelopezzz poo bean nor track. hmmmmmmmmmmmm WTF?


yes we saw elk and yes we saw wolves and we heard wolves.


now btwn humping our azz off(feets dont fail me now), riding quads all over the unit(know it like the back of my hand since i have been going there since i was a kid), driving across the entire unit, a pair of doktor 15x80's, a pair of steiner 10x50's a bushnell spotting scope..................you would THINK we might find at least a freeking DOE!


now if you were a wolf would you square off on a cow elk bull elk...........or a measly azzd deer or antelopezzz?????? pretty obvious what the answer is.


now lets move over cross da border to new messiko..............from reserve new messiko south along the blue river and east into the black range and the gila.



guess what? the bare minimum of deer to be found spring summer fall winter. hmmmmmm wonder why? martian aliens???


and ya know what?????????? if ya think yer a real bad azz, i flat double dawg DARE YOU TO WEAR a I HEART WOLVES t-shirt into any bar/cafe from alpine ,az. over to reserve, new messiko on down south to silver city,new messiko, and see what the ranchers (their only income cattle/sheep) have to say about your opinion.



please forward pics and have your will made out.



i dont have a problem with them as i will never hunt a unit for deer or antelopezzz again that has wolves in it. why waste 5 hrs getting there,fuel beer,food etc. to hear wolves howl and see elk that ya cant shoot when ya got a freeking deer or antelopezz tag?


now look up the bull crap ya gotta go thru while buck nekid jumping thru fiery azzd hoops to get yer money back from the feds when some of yer cattle or sheep are killed by wolves and you will understand why so many(all) ranchers HATE THEM!




and then theres the clowns that want to re-introduce GRIZZLY BEARS back into the same area......UNIT 27 and along the blue river, where the last grizz was killed in 1920. yes grizzi bears where native to airy-zoney.



so there ya have both sides in a nutshell.

Thanks Jeff..

elk and deer up in certain areas = wolves hunted to extinction..

Hunt and Game did a poor job regulating # of wolves killed when they had control...= allowed killing to the point of extinction..

and folks will always side with the critter being hunted from a plane..

Rika

now Juan..:)
usen that 4 wheeler to travel into the bush..
then sitting some 300 yards back in the bushes in your Macy's gillie suit..
& using one of your uber Kalibers..& Hubble telescope
to go boom..is hardly fair huntin..
the wolfies at least sneak up and then go gotcha..

Rika SmileWavy

Is that why in the 1800's there were millions of friggin' buffalo?????? Oh wait it was homo sapiens that damn near killed them off.
****ing sickening, and yeah that's a quote.

wez very very very SNEAKY! and we subscribe to: if they aint there and we aint seeing 'em......................then move along lil dawgie...........move along.



and thats why after 3 days of burning fat off, melting my vibrams, trudging across the tundra mile after mile and gitting real damn tarred(tired)................gawd made quads, and when ya get monkeybutt from being in the cold rain and snow(grateful dead) on a quad and yer hands permanently frozen to yer handlebars, and yer rifle and yerself covered in mud, thats why gawd made chevy Z71 4x4's with killer diller heating and thats when we become "kings of the roadhunters!"


1/2 hour before dawn until 1/2 after sundown, wez out hunting. none of this lil nappy poo crap during the middle of the day.

on average for a 10 day hunt i loose 10-12 pounds off of my svelte physique.



there is NOTHING BETTER than hunting hard, while some lazy ass feeks off taking naps,getting drunk, and you come back with game and he goes home SKUNKED!

the reason why the buffalo died off.........................................was because they ran into TRAINS!




now how do you think all the "gandydancers"(look it up) got fed?




there used to be a whole slew of chinamen...................and they ran into TRAINS and those that decided to have them go back into a tunnel at 4:59pm on friday(payday)...................and suddenly there was an EXPLOSION and the chinamen mysteriously never had to be paid. hmmmm?



buffalo/wolves/humans..................wez all toast in the next hundert years anyway.

Not so sure what folks are getting so worked up about. The wolves and yotes in those photos died under a hell of a lot better circumstances than the cattle that went into your hamburger.

then they are either trying to shut you up or are idiots

as many others have stated, wolves will take the old & sick (and some calves); they also introduce a "scare factor" into prey, which will then hug tight in cover

it is well established that w/o wolves, etc. elk will over-browse the vegetation

all the above makes hunting a bit more difficult sporting proposition

if you want to live in a big game farm, then your mileage may vary

you don't have too many of them

fixed it for you..
FYI when they were introduced into Yellowstone the Elk population dropped in half almost instantly..

Oh Mark,, the Buffalo near extinction was not due to sport hunters, was due to systematic slaughter by corporate hunters..

Wolves will hunt a species until near extinction in an area you need proof look at the moose and caribou populations in some area of AK,, Anyone who thinks they only take the old and sick is foolish,, there aren't enough old and sick of any species to sustain a healthy wolf population

What species are corporate hunters? :confused:

The key is balanced management, Rika. Wolves (and other large predators, such as the California grizzly) were hunted into near extinction before there was any semblance of modern game management. As a matter of fact, so were deer, elk, moose, and other game animals. These tragedies are a large part of why we have developed management philosophies based upon sound biology and sustainable numbers. Game biologists now estimate there are more deer and elk in North America than when the Pilgrims landed. No kidding. Modern game management has been that successful. And every last bit of it has been paid for by hunters, through license and tag fees, and taxes levied on their gear under the Pitman-Robertson act.

Wolves need to be brought in as a part of that in the lower 48, just as they are in Alaska. With no "endangered" status placed upon Alaskan wolves, the state is free to manage their populations just as they are free to manage other animals' populations. It works quite well up there.

Oh, and by the way, no one hunts wolves from helicopters. Game agents and hired guns shoot plenty of wolves from helicopters, true. In the vast, remote areas in which they are managing animal populations, there really is no other way. It is not meant to be sporting in any way, shape, or form. It's meant to be efficient and as cost-effective as possible. Alaskan taxpayers and hunters are footing the bill, after all. Game biologists identify a need to reduce wolf numbers in a given area, and they get it done. It's not pretty. It's not meant to be, and, frankly, they don't care.

Affected states in the lower 48 are simply pleading for the same authority in managing their populations. The wolf is, today, and uncontrolled "wild card" in the greater scheme of game management for these states. If they were not an extremely effective top-tier predator, things may be different. But they are. And, as such, they have a profound affect upon other animals that must be mitigated and brought under control. By game management professionals, not the courts.

Yes, they did. In a purely political effort directed at stripping the native population of one of its key elements of survival and independence. And, incidentally, long before we ever thought of any sort of game management. Not that it would have mattered if we had, as these were by no means sport hunters out to fill a tag. They were market hunters at first (since made illegal in this country for any sort of game) and then, when the markets dried up, they were simply collecting bounties that were paid by our government.

What on earth does any of that have to do with our wolf situation?

It has to do with comments about wolves killing their prey until extinction. Just as Todd said... "The elk population was cut in half" or something like that. Predators and prey survived hundred's of thousands of years together without the need for arrogant homo sapien's interference or 'management'.
And if the Elk population was cut in half so be it. Then I guess the sport hunters will just have to work a little harder, like OddJob, (I think that's what he is trying to say, I never know).

Isn't it also a fact that predators will have less litters, smaller litters when the prey population dwindles? Checks & balances.

True, they coexisted for longer than that.

But Jeff is correct that mgmt. is needed if you have modern* humans in the mix; also to adjust levels where humans want them (i.e. more elk, fewer wolves).

The states will be able to manage w/o interference once the wolves are no longer in danger of extinction. Or clearly no longer in danger, depending on your politics.


* Many many species of large mammals (incl. horse & camels) went extinct just after Neolithic hunters moved in to N. America ('proto-indians') so "modern" can extend further than you think. Probably Paleolithic technology would have been up to the mass extinction also. OTOH, Africa had no such events, so if you evolve while humans are evolving, you can stick around.


For the next PARF wildlife controversy, I suggest feral horses.

Man has inextricably stuck his nose into things and it's simply way too late to just pull it back out and say "let nature run its course". Disaster would soon follow at a level no one wants to see. Our best bet for sustainable wildlife populations today is to follow sound, proven management policies. Wolf advocates simply refuse to come to terms with that. Adding insult to injury, the most vocal and active wolf advocates tend not to live in the affected areas. They have nothing at stake, no skin in the game, and no knowledge of modern management practices. All they have is emotion. And money - lots of money - to keep management in the courts, rather than with trained professionals.

+1 Jeff

That is the primary delusion under which most of the PETA and ALF types live. Predators take primarily the young in their first year of life. Where this "old and sick" rot comes from is anyone's guess. Yes, predators kill the feeble and weak - but the vast majority of those feeble and weak that they kill are only feeble and weak because they are young, not old.

Maybe the feeble and weak minded would understand if we told them it's for the children...

Very True !!

I'm making a guess that RWebb lives in in a High rise in downtown Portland ?

Double Subscription to Ranger Rick

Never argue with Granolas they are always right.

you are wrong on all counts

need another guess?

you are welcome to any point of view or bias you want - just don't try to disguise it as biology or any other facts

i'm just waiting for the local news to post a CHILD munched on or a GRANDMOTHER munched on by wolves here in az. and new messiko. its only a matter of time.


these re-introduced wolves show NO FEAR of humanoids that are HEAVILY ARMED eating their MRE's sitting under the pines in unit 27 east of alpine,az. overlooking a drainage. (2) of them came up from the west up the draw as we were faced south looking fer deer-skis.


when we saw movement the hair on my head stood up, and my buddy since he is follically challenged, the hair on his gorilla back stood at attention.



we waz cocked locked ready to rock and rollah as the ayatolla's of that damn pristine knoll. had they made a run on us, they was gonna be toast, cuz i aint giving my MRE to no damn wolfey.


as it was they merely amused themselves by watching us for about 15 minutes and then they ge-splitten.



after that we just looked at each other and said.........."so much for the deer-skis around here!"



dont fool yerselves they are "JUST" eating the infirmed the crippled the retarded the injured deer-skis and antelopezzz'. they are CLEANING THE HERDS OUT!



now for (1) mili-micro-pico second, think that WE cant find deer in ANY hunt unit after (10) damn days of hunting the HELL out of the unit, no other hunters seeing any sign whatso ever, then YOU are a MORON!


unit 27 was the 1st unit EVER in my life that at the very LEAST we should have seen FRESH SIGN, FRESH POO POO BEANS, or a stoopid freeking doe or fawn!


optic(optiks) are KEY HERE and at least 50% of the time we nail the hell out of them sleeping in the pucker bushes or in the juniper/oaks from afar. cuz we can and we're good.



so yes wolves are a part of the ecosystem, but the ecosystem was in a hell of alot better condition 125 years ago attested by the pics and racks from deer/elk/antelopezzz' across the state. hunting pressure/poaching/drought/fires/road-kills have all had a enormous impact on kritters.


now heres another get yer panties in a twist reality. ever since PETA and other tree hugging morons have stiffened laws on TRAPPING varmint populations HAVE EXPLODED, and guess what the yotes (the trickster) eat??????????????


lil baby elk, lil baby deer-skis, lil baby antelopezzz' and that really screws up the entire ecosystem when the lil itty bitty babies become coyote chum and never reach maturity FOR ME TO HUNT!



so there ya have it. because i am gonna hunt right on up til im in a freeking wheelchair with sidepipes on it and blast the living HELL out of every legal deer/elk/antelopezz/bear/mtn lion until i keel over from old age. cuz i can. and cuz I LIKE IT! and because MY LEGAL TAG SAYS I CAN!



or you can look at me and my fellow hunters at doing YOU armchair 1/4 backs A SERVICE. cuz everytime YOU drive down a rural road and i kill a critter that year................thats (1) less kritter, that just may come flying thru yer front windshield and totally screw up yer day or possibly yer life! think about DAT!

You know the really sad thing is the wolves were getting hunted out in Montana, and years ago we (Canada) sent some of ours down to repopulate, now it goes around again...

If you are going to "thin" out the polulation, I suggest thining out everything that the wolves would have normally eaten that way the scales won't be tipped.

My two cents

ODDDUCK, man can you spew gibberish. It's really amazing.

ducky terrier..........................i know yer a doctorate in english composition, and to know my "gibberish" pisses you off...........................well that just makes this here place just that more ge-fun!


and as others before have complained, YOU are just another "WORD/SPILLING(spelling)wanna be COP, that just got run over by dat dem der FREIGHT TRAIN!


nanny nanny boo boo. yer mutha was a hamster and urine father smells of edelberries!


RAMA RAMA DING DONG!

Curious - why are they hung like that? Those don't appear to be just pelts, but the complete carcass.

I wish they would reintroduce the Grizzly in California. It is the state animal and on the state flag.

ODDDUCK- Every time you write a word you just re-enforce you're the King of Gibberish. And no, don't think so highly of yourself to think you even remotely piss me off.You're just a gnat on a camel's ass.

duckyterrier..............have you EVAR seen a wolfey in the wild? have you EVAR smelled their urine? have you EVAR seen their tracks(sign)? have you EVAR determined by their FECES how long ago they were present?


have YOU ever gotten off yer azz and walked out of yer pompous connuticutt home and actually HUNTED? or you like just like r2d2esq and sit on the throne of the sun king?


do you EVEN know the genus species of these wolves? have you ever walked upon a wolf mtn/ lion kill and determined from sign which killed it?


or do you sit with martha stewart over tea and read the latest PETA magazines and then make pompous wildlife/hunting/ranching moronic remarks?


oh thats right............you were once a highly decorated U.S. fish and wildlife biologist, that owned a ranch on the side punching lil dawgies, and you got to see both sides of the wolf conundrum.


have you EVAR even been off the pavement in the WEST?


oh and by the wayyyyyy..............i have (1) BILL-YON posts here, i am on the board of directors at the EXCLUSIVE 'BUSHWOOD COUNTRY CLUB"(members only) and i fart in yer general direction!



oddjob uno..................putting POMPOUS/ARROGANT/IGNORANT azz people in THEIR place since 1957.

RAMA RAMA DING DONG!