Mubarak Steps Down From Power

[imcarthur]

My sister-in-law + her son are booked for Egypt next month. They still are hoping to go but they are also looking elsewhere now. I am booked for Turkey in May, but it is quite stable so it shouldn't be a problem.

Ian

[Steve Viegas]

Just a question, not trying to cause problems...How much credit does Bush Jr. get for this?

[lisa_spyder]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

My sister-in-law + her son are booked for Egypt next month. They still are hoping to go but they are also looking elsewhere now. I am booked for Turkey in May, but it is quite stable so it shouldn't be a problem.

Ian

I would love to go to Turkey again...last time I was there I was 3...don't remember much ...

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Steve Viegas

Just a question, not trying to cause problems...How much credit does Bush Jr. get for this?

Krauthammer gives him and NEO CONS credit..Kraut man says the Egyptians are the new NEOCONS...LOL

[lisa_spyder]

The bolding of text is mine...

"Bahrain's king gifts $3,000 to every family
Bahrain News.Net
Friday 11th February, 2011 (Source: )

MANAMA, Bahrain - Bahrain's king has ordered that each family in the tiny Gulf monarchy be given $3,000 to mark the 10th anniversary of a national charter for reforms, state news agency BNA said on Friday.

"On the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the National Action Charter and as a sign of appreciation for the people of Bahrain who have approved it, King Hamad bin Issa al-Khalifa has ordered 1,000 dinars (3,000 dollars) to be paid to every Bahraini family," BNA reported.

The decision came as cyber activists called for protests in Bahrain starting from Monday to demand political, social and economic reforms.

In a February 2001 referendum, Bahrainis approved a national charter for reform which restored a parliament dissolved in 1975, and in February 2002, Bahrain became a kingdom rule... ..."

More detail from another service here:
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/2/12/worldupdates/2011-02-12T004220Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-548391-1&sec=Worldupdates

"Bahrain is one of the few Arab countries where the majority practices Shi'ite Islam. Tensions between the ruling family and the Shi'ite majority population are usually at a low boil, although there were some clashes ahead of election last October.

Bahrain, home to the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet, is seen as a bulwark by its allies Saudi Arabia and the United States against the regional influence of Shi'ite Iran."



And this...from one of the myriad of political parties in Lebanon (there are so many...) - again the bolding of text is mine...

"The Guardians of the Cedars Party - The Movement for Lebanese Nationalism issued the following message:

While the winds of change are blowing all around us in the region, and popular uprisings are moving at dizzying speed from one capital to another; while rulers are falling or tottering on the brink to the drumbeat of revolutionaries demanding freedom and dignity, and regimes long thought as made of steel are crumbling like paper tigers, while others are quickly enacting domestic reforms in an effort to pre-empt the flames from engulfing them...

While all of this is happening, our people in Lebanon remain idle and submissive, watching events as if they are of no concern to them, enduring but not rebelling, following their leaders like a herd of sheep, moved by their sectarian and religious – but not their national – impulse, eschewing the street except in support of one political side against another, or in solidarity with one boss against another, when all the leaders and bosses of the Lebanese political establishment joined together and conspired against the Lebanese people. Instead of demonstrating in protest against all the leaders and bosses who have oppressed them, humiliated them, and starved them for decades, the Lebanese people take to the street to protest the fall of one of those leaders. One wonders then, what would it take to move the Lebanese people to action??? The peoples of Tunisia and Egypt have earned their rights by fighting for them, and we know that the Lebanese people are no less capable of similar courage and determination.

Those who expect change to arrive from the outside are mistaken. Those who believe that friendly countries will sacrifice their interests for other people's interests are deluding themselves. And if Lebanon really wants to exit the infernal crisis in which it has been floundering for decades, it can only depend on itself and on the enormous potential and the many capabilities of its people.

We have previously called for revolution. We call for it today with a greater sense of urgency, and we will continue to call for it until all the objectives are met and until our people recover their spoiled rights to a free, secure and dignified life. If the 2005 revolution targeted the Syrian occupation and evicted the Syrian army, the revolution today ought to be against internal occupation by the thieves of the temple who must be evicted to save the country from their evil and corruption.

Let us remember that the world has no respect for servile people who do not demand their rights and remain silent over their grievances. The world loves people who are proud and active, and who seize every opportunity to rise against tyrants and despots. You can see it today in the world's overwhelming support to the people of Tunisia and Egypt.

Let the revolution of oppressed peoples everywhere be the marching order of our time. May the young men and women who are leading them be blessed and may their arms raised like spears in the face of the regimes of tyranny and oppression be also blessed. And, who knows? May Lebanon be next.

Lebanon, at your service
Abu Arz

February 04, 2011"

[imcarthur]

A reasonable summation of the possible contenders:

Mubarak's requiem: who will emerge?

On Al Jazeera . . . so assume some regional bias.

Ian

[lisa_spyder]

I still say Suleiman is gone...

This is also a reasonable account I think:

Analysis: Military coup was behind Mubarak's exit

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT_THE_COUP_ANALYSIS?SITE=WWL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[lane912]

this is great to see happen in countrys that have had such screwed up leadership for so long.

when will it be the United States of America's turn?

[imcarthur]

The telling paragraph from the link Lisa posted:

"The truth is that even the senior military now at the top of the power structure under Mubarak almost certainly have no clear idea of what happens next," Anthony Cordesman of the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote in a commentary on Thursday. "It will be days before anyone know how well the transition will function, who goes and who stays, and how stable the result really is."

Ian

[lisa_spyder]

Originally Posted by TRE Cup

Egypt's military has a very strong interest in keeping the country stable and moving the economy forward. They are literally a military/industrial power house making consumer goods for the population !
So Mr. out of touch Mubarak will not be able to pull the strings to hard in orchestrating much more of this "Mubarak supporters beat up on "revolutionaries" " business

Dave,

They certainly have an interest alright:

"In a strange public-private alliance forged decades ago, Egyptian military officers own a share in just about every industry in the country, from road construction to car assembly to tourism. This could lead to a serious clash with protesters who've been calling for an end to corruption and for Mubarak to be put on trial."

Democracy In Egypt An Uncertainty, Analysts Fear : NPR

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by lisa_spyder

I shudder to think just how much he and his entourage have 'taken' from Egypt.

I've heard he collected $70 billion while "his" people suffered. Cairo was a sewer when I was there 4 years ago. $69 billion would have done wonders for his nation and still given him a billion dollars to retire on, but he chose to let them live in filth.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Steve Viegas

Just a question, not trying to cause problems...How much credit does Bush Jr. get for this?

By "this" do you mean the uprising? I'd say zero. My understanding is that this is totally an internal revolution.
Bush said the right words and if he was sincere, he would have supported the people just as Obama has. But looking at the reaction from the American right, he might have been overruled by Rumsfeld and Cheney.

[lisa_spyder]

I doubt the 3 year freeze by the Swiss will be enough to recover it all...I wonder if it ever will be recovered

I think Mubarak is a marked man...it would not surprise me if he doesn't see more than one or maybe two more birthdays and doesn't die of natural causes. I wouldn't agree with this course of action at all as I think the process would be much better served if he was alive to face his adversaries...plus I don't support a killing spree on any level.

Yes I know he's already an old man...and now I wonder if we will hear that his health is ailing; needs asylum in a 'friendly country' etc...is Germany still an option (not saying Germany is friendly but it was on the table a few days ago) or will he try to run to the Sauds (who will have their hands full soon enough I think anyway as the feeling of rebellion spreads)...

[Steve Viegas]

My comment was more along the lines that Bush Jr. really made a push to help set up a democratic government in the ME and it was thought by many that if a stablized nation in the ME had a democratic government, that it would spread.

I am not saying he deserves credit, I am wondering how history will view it.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

By "this" do you mean the uprising? I'd say zero. My understanding is that this is totally an internal revolution.
Bush said the right words and if he was sincere, he would have supported the people just as Obama has. But looking at the reaction from the American right, he might have been overruled by Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Funny how he "supported" the overthrow of an ally in Egypt...but turned his back when the Iranian people rose up against our enemy (their repressive regime).

[Normy]

Originally Posted by tabs

welcome to the ME...

Egypt is not Iran...Egypt was conquered by Alexander and ruled by the Greek Ptolemies with Cleopatra being the last of the line. Then it was 400 years of Roman rule...So Egypt has a long tradition of Western influence.

Secondly and here is a big difference..Iran fell to an Islamic theocratic rule during the Cold War. At the time the USA was blind sided because we were focused on Communist led revolts. Whoever thought of such a thing as an Islamic takeover??? The difference and dynamic is that the US response isn't so inflexible for lack of a better term.

Also with Democracy and freedom being offered it under cuts the appeal of fundamentalism as a means of governance. Now there is a viable alternative.

Rememer it was the young folk of Iran who revolted after the fraudalent election and it is the young in Egypt who want a change...These people do not want the ways of the 14Th century they want to be part of the 21St century...

FIRST of all, the LAST thing we need is "You"!

You're an extremist. You are WAY WAY WAY more right-wing than the general public of the United States! You are totally against the middle class of this country; If you had your way, I am certain that you would turn the United States into India. A place were the average person works for a few cents per day, while a few VERY RICH people become incredibly rich! You want the street itself to have NO maintenace whatsoever. In India, your poop goes down the toilet...and since there is NO local government to speak of...It flows out to a groove in the ground in front of your house. This is what Tabs wants for EVERY home in the United States! Tabs wants your poop flowing down the street. Tabs is against the government maintaining the streets. He's against public education- If this clown was in charge, there would be NO public education! If Tabs had his way, you would be forced to either: 1. home school your kids, or 2. pay for private education. Have you seen the cost of this lately? It is like $4000 per year!

Tabs wants to get rid of all government. All these old ladies who live off social security, carefully counting their pennies...Tabs says "Throw them on the street!" You see, Tabs is sick and tired of paying....TAXES! He's a wealthy guy now, enjoys driving his Porsches,and he's bothered by the fact that some of his tax dollars are supporting "dead beats!"

Well, I can definitely agree with him on this one! I don't know why the "section 8" system is allowing full-grown healthy adult males to live in subsidized housing without asking them to work in exchange. Is there no county work farm? On the side I work for a company that owns apartments; I do maintenance work, and an apartment building across the street from mine is FULL of Section 8 CRAP; We've had no end of trouble with these people, and we try to have showings of our property there during the morning, because all the "monkeys" will be out in the parking lot talking extremely loud in the evening, and it tends to turn our potential tenants away!

So I can see Tabs points on some things, but he's still just an extremist! He's just like the Ayatolla Khomeini, he's just like Osama Bin Ladin; An extremist. A filth, a butt, something to discard. Nobody needs this guy-

N!

[lisa_spyder]

Oh FFS!!!

This is your mother speaking...."If you want to fight; take it outside".

Normy; your view on the Egyptian situation?

[johnnywishbone]

Originally Posted by tabs

U don't get what just happened..

The Arabs have just gone from the 14TH century autocratic and religious rule to the 21ST century.

hope you're correct. berlin or iran.

an "arab" is "a member of a Semitic people originally from the Arabian peninsula and surrounding territories who speaks Arabic and who inhabits much of the Middle East and northern Africa"

a saudi told me "the only thing we have in common is our religion and language." he resented being tossed into the large meaningless group "arab." i suppose "hispanic"
same concept.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Normy

FIRST of all, the LAST thing we need is "You"!

You're an extremist. You are WAY WAY WAY more right-wing than the general public of the United States! You are totally against the middle class of this country; If you had your way, I am certain that you would turn the United States into India. A place were the average person works for a few cents per day, while a few VERY RICH people become incredibly rich! You want the street itself to have NO maintenace whatsoever. In India, your poop goes down the toilet...and since there is NO local government to speak of...It flows out to a groove in the ground in front of your house. This is what Tabs wants for EVERY home in the United States! Tabs wants your poop flowing down the street. Tabs is against the government maintaining the streets. He's against public education- If this clown was in charge, there would be NO public education! If Tabs had his way, you would be forced to either: 1. home school your kids, or 2. pay for private education. Have you seen the cost of this lately? It is like $4000 per year!

Tabs wants to get rid of all government. All these old ladies who live off social security, carefully counting their pennies...Tabs says "Throw them on the street!" You see, Tabs is sick and tired of paying....TAXES! He's a wealthy guy now, enjoys driving his Porsches,and he's bothered by the fact that some of his tax dollars are supporting "dead beats!"

Well, I can definitely agree with him on this one! I don't know why the "section 8" system is allowing full-grown healthy adult males to live in subsidized housing without asking them to work in exchange. Is there no county work farm? On the side I work for a company that owns apartments; I do maintenance work, and an apartment building across the street from mine is FULL of Section 8 CRAP; We've had no end of trouble with these people, and we try to have showings of our property there during the morning, because all the "monkeys" will be out in the parking lot talking extremely loud in the evening, and it tends to turn our potential tenants away!

So I can see Tabs points on some things, but he's still just an extremist! He's just like the Ayatolla Khomeini, he's just like Osama Bin Ladin; An extremist. A filth, a butt, something to discard. Nobody needs this guy-

N!

I want to thank U from the bottom of my heart Normy, this screed coming from you is praise indeed..

Hey Fint ya feel jealous that Normy hasn't validated you conservative credentials by diatribing you...

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Normy

..
Well, I can definitely agree with him on this one! I don't know why the "section 8" system is allowing full-grown healthy adult males to live in subsidized housing without asking them to work in exchange. Is there no county work farm? On the side I work for a company that owns apartments; I do maintenance work, and an apartment building across the street from mine is FULL of Section 8 CRAP; We've had no end of trouble with these people, and we try to have showings of our property there during the morning, because all the "monkeys" will be out in the parking lot talking extremely loud in the evening, and it tends to turn our potential tenants away!...

A little real world experience with the results of our overly generous, dehumanizing social welfare system has made Normy a closet conservative.

The problem in Egypt will be exactly the same...but worse. The reason so many could protest endlessly is because most Egyptians have never had a job...an entire generation of "section 8" people...with nothing to do but throw rocks. Most hate the US and most would happily execute a Christian or Jew. Since they hate the US...we should stop sending them money now...and give them the tough love they need.