Gibson Guitar factory raided

[stomachmonkey]

$7.5 Million in pre-orders, wow.

With Timber Scarce, Old Logs Deep in a Lake Become a Sunken Treasure - NYTimes.com

[porsche4life]

Hmm... I need to go diving for logs... Seems to be a lucrative business...

[RWebb]

A co. the size of Gibson should be able to figure out how to comply with the law - esp. on the 2nd or 3rd try...

[slodave]

Interesting article on the previous raid..

Details come to light on Gibson

[slodave]

Then there's this nightmare..
CITES treaty for guitar collectors | The Fretboard Journal: Keepsake magazine for guitar collectors

[slodave]

Response from Gibson..
Gibson Guitar Corp. Responds to Federal Raid

Entire release..
Gibson Press Release

[livi]

So Jeff.. erh. Dave, I suppose there are other qualities of those 3-4 wood types than density and weight, that make them attractive in the instrument business? Otherwise, as far as I know, there are many other kinds of wood that are also very dens and heavy. Whats wrong with say, oak, for example?

BTW, are there any instruments made of redwood? Although probably rather soft texture they sure grow old.

[sammyg2]

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”

Really? The justice department has so much time on it's hands since it decided not to prosecute black panthers or illegal aliens that it can now worry about enforcing India's laws even though India doesn't give a crap? Seriously?


But, but, but, I read the other day that the current administration is (pretending to be) business friendly and is proposing all kinds of new "business friendly" rules.
Guess they only apply to green energy scams and businesses run by the admin's brothers in law.

Screw the American workers, but support India's workers.

[sc_rufctr]

This is ridiculous.

Why hobble a company like Gibson? That just doesn't any make sense.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

This is ridiculous.

Why hobble a company like Gibson? That just doesn't any make sense.

It's pin-headed, over-zealous, take-no-prisoners, law enforcement. Bit like the Strauss-Kahn farce. A very American phenomenon IMO.

[Fritter]

Gibson appears to be somewhat of the "patsy" here, if the selling company doesn't classify the products correctly then bad things happen, although it is also the responsibility of the purchasing company to make sure the customs paperwork is correct.

If the wood is illegal I am all for confiscating it, but it doesn't seem Gibson should be at fault here, the supplier should.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

prosecute black panthers

you have apparently skipped over a few decades - this could be serious and you should see a neurologist

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

This is ridiculous.

Why hobble a company like Gibson? That just doesn't any make sense.

DOJ is following various treaties - they are required to do that

[imcarthur]

Contraband is contraband. It sure sounds like Gibson got caught with their pants down.

I spent a couple of weeks one summer as a teen helping with a log salvage operation. A lot of fun (and a lot of beer).

Ian

[Les Paul]

I have a collection. Old and new. I was asked here years ago if I were indeed Les Paul. I explained all the good Pcar type monickers were gone I loved and collected Les Pauls and I tried it and it wasn't taken.

That said if you know the real guitar gods they are going to sound the same be it a 54 or a 11. The "tone" is pure snobbery. IMHO smilley.

[nostatic]

One of the builders I use scours estate sales looking for interesting wood that he can use. When I was at NAMM there were a couple of wood distributors that had booths. There also was this Russian guy who was walking around passing out cards for his wood distribution business. My g/f and I joked about the wood black market being controlled by the Russian mob. The thing is, I don't think it is a joke...

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

you have apparently skipped over a few decades - this could be serious and you should see a neurologist

Maybe you should pay more attention to what is going on in the world before popping off.
You leave the impression that you only acknowledge what you LIKE and ignore everything you DON'T LIKE! It's either that or that you choose to be dishonest. Which is it?
You should probably be more careful not to interrupt when the adults are talking.

Doesn't surprise me at all, that's SOP for your ilk. Truth? Naw, don't like it.
BS that makes you feel good? Bring it on.
Warning, the following TRUTH will mess with the fantasy world you have chosen to live in:

DOJ’s Civil Rights Division, Which Did Not Prosecute New Black Panthers, Is ‘Conscience’...
CNSNews ^ | June 7, 2010 | Christopher Neefus

Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 7:37:55 AM by jazusamo

(CNSNews.com) – Attorney General Eric Holder said Friday that the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division is the “conscience of our nation” and that he has restored its primacy within the department during his first year on the job.

The division, which handles "hate crimes" and voter rights cases, has come under scrutiny for failing to prosecute a group of New Black Panthers who allegedly engaged in voter intimidation and racial insults outside a Philadelphia polling station on Election Day 2008.

Holder was addressing the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) on Friday when he attested to the importance of the Civil Rights Division’s mission, and the importance of applying the law impartially. “(W)e have restored the department’s Civil Rights Division to its proper place as the conscience of our nation and our country’s pre-eminent civil rights law enforcement agency,” Holder said.

“The communities that we serve must see that the federal government is really committed to the impartial and aggressive enforcement of our nation’s laws, and these communities must know that we will do all that we can to enforce the law that protect our civil rights with the same vigor that we enforce the laws that protect our public safety.

“These are not, as I have often said, mutually exclusive goals – the Justice Department will do both.”

Despite those comments, Holder dismissed default judgments that the Bush Justice Department had filed against Malik Shabazz and Jerry Jackson in January 2009.

The suit alleged that Shabazz, a member of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (NBPP), “managed, directed and endorsed” the incident, in which Jackson and a third defendant, Samir Shabazz, wore NBPP uniforms that included “black berets combat boots, bloused battle dress pants, rank insignia, (NBPP) insignia, and black jackets.”

Samir Shabazz also was accused by the Bush DOJ of having “brandished a deadly weapon,” described as a nightstick, and “pointed it at individuals” while the polls were open for voting in the presidential election.

Jackson accompanied Samir Shabazz throughout that activity, and both “made statements containing racial threats and racial insults” and made “menacing and intimidating gestures statements and movements directed at individuals who were present to aid voters.”

When the defendants did not respond to the complaint from the federal government, the Bush DOJ won default judgments against Jackson and Malik Shabazz, but Holder’s DOJ chose to dismiss them in May 2009.

After no explanation came from the Obama Justice Department on the decision for nearly a year, a trial attorney from the Voting Rights Section of the Civil Rights Division chose to resign over the dismissal, because he felt he was being placed in the position, along with the rest of the team, of being placed under investigation.

Trial attorney J. Christian Adams wrote his May 14, 2010 resignation on the heels of a subpoena to appear before the fact-finding U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, which has launched an investigation into the matter.

Adams also complained of the NBPP defendants having “become increasingly belligerent in their rhetoric toward the attorneys who brought the case.”

Holder’s assistant attorney general for civil rights, Thomas Perez, appeared before the commission, also on May 14, and defended the decision by describing it as a mere dispute between career lawyers working beneath the political appointees. The decision to dismiss the cases was made before Perez was confirmed by the Senate and in place.

Holder praised Perez in his comments on Friday, saying his assistant “has made it a priority to transform the Civil Rights Division to tackle the civil rights challenges of the 21st century.

“Over the last year, the division has made substantial and meaningful progress towards bringing the promise of equal opportunity to all Americans, and I look forward to building on that work.”

Holder also assured ADC members attending the convention that hate crimes cases would be a priority of the Obama administration, and that it was working hard on a crime against Muslims in Florida.

“Among the Civil Rights Division’s many goals … there is one issue in particular that I know is of particular importance to many of you, and that is combating hate crimes. For this administration, and for today’s Department of Justice, the prosecution of hate crimes is a top priority.”

The Matthew Shephard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, passed by Congress in 2008, has allowed the DOJ “to address and to eliminate hate-fueled crimes around the nation,” Holder added, “and we are working to train attorneys and law enforcement officers in its aggressive enforcement.

“Already, we have several investigations open under the new law, and I want you all to know that we are currently working with local law enforcement to investigate the recent pipe bomb attack on a Florida mosque.”

A pipe bomb exploded during evening prayers at the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida on May 10. No one was injured inside the Jacksonville mosque, but police and the FBI are investigating it as a possible hate crime.

“This case is a top concern for the FBI,” Holder said.

The following is a partial transcript of Attorney General Holder’s comments:

Holder: The communities that we serve must see that the federal government is really committed to the impartial and aggressive enforcement of our nation’s laws, and these communities must know that we will do all that we can to enforce the law that protect our civil rights with the same vigor that we enforce the laws that protect our public safety. These are not, as I have often said, mutually exclusive goals—the Justice Department will do both.

Now, under my leadership, that is the commitment of the Justice Department and of every United States Attorney throughout this nation. It is also my personal pledge to each and every one of you.

But what exactly have we done to assure the equal enforcement of our nation’s laws? Well, first, we have restored the department’s Civil Rights Division to its proper place as the conscience of our nation and our country’s pre-eminent civil rights law enforcement agency.

Now, Assistant Attorney General Tom Perez, who I understand is with us somewhere here today, yes?

ADC: Yeah, he has not arrived yet.

Holder: He’s on his way. Assistant Attorney General Tom Perez, who will be with us today, and who will be speaking with you tomorrow, has made it a priority to transform the Civil Rights Division to tackle the civil rights challenges of the 21st century. Over the last year, the division has made substantial and meaningful progress towards bringing the promise of equal opportunity to all Americans, and I look forward to building on that work.

But it’s not enough to say that the division will simply be more active. The real question is to what end will it dedicate its resources and its energy? Well, so long as I am Attorney General, that answer is pretty simple. We will dedicate our resources and our energy to enforcing the law neutrally and fairly and to working to provide all Americans with an equal opportunity to pursue their dreams. That is what civil rights enforcement is all about.

Among the Civil Rights Division’s many goals—ensuring fair housing and lending, disability rights, education opportunity and more—there is one issue in particular that I know is of particular importance to many of you, and that is combating hate crimes. For this administration, and for today’s Department of Justice, the prosecution of hate crimes is a top priority. We are employing new tools afforded to us by the Matthew Shephard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2008 to address and to eliminate hate-fueled crimes around the nation, and we are working to train attorneys and law enforcement officers in its aggressive enforcement.

Already, we have several investigations open under the new law, and I want you all to know that we are currently working with local law enforcement to investigate the recent pipe bomb attack on a Florida mosque. This case is a top concern for the FBI.

[sammyg2]

Is Fed Raid on Gibson Guitar Company Enforcing Policy . . . or a Push to Target 'Made in the USA'?
By John Roberts
Published September 07, 2011

They are among the most sought-after musical instruments in the world. Everyone from Chet Atkins to Les Paul to Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin to Slash of Guns n’ Roses played them. A vintage 1959 Les Paul guitar can go for as much as $400,000. Almost every kid who has dreams of music stardom wants a Gibson guitars.

Gibson is also a company that is proud to put the “Made in the USA” label on its instruments. While the company has lower-end lines that are made overseas, every guitar that bears the “Gibson” label is made in the U.S. by American workers.

On August 24, armed agents from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and Homeland Security raided the corporate headquarters and two factories of the Gibson Guitar company. The agencies took away 24 pallets of Indian rosewood and ebony, as well as a number of guitars and computer files.

The federal agents’ contention is that Gibson had illegally imported the exotic wood, which is used to make fretboards and bridges for their high-end instruments. Under the 1900 Lacey Act, which was amended in 2008 to include wood products, American companies must abide by the laws of source countries when importing products. The intent of the law is to protect endangered species of wildlife and plants. U.S. Fish and Wildlife claims that the Gibson wood – in the form of fingerboard ‘blanks’ -- was illegal to export from India and therefore illegal to import into the United States.

Now here’s the rub. While the feds say the wood – as imported – is illegal, had it been ‘finished’ by workers in India, it would have been perfectly legal to import. The wood itself was not banned, just the manufacturing process – or lack of it.

“I think they’re taking the position that we should be shifting these jobs overseas,” says Bruce Mitchell, the chief legal counsel for Gibson. “We have – probably 40 people in our factory here just at USA who are doing the inlays into the fingerboard … that are putting the fret on. If all that was to be done over in India, then …. those jobs would be lost.

What’s most puzzling about this case is that India is perfectly happy to ship the fingerboard ‘blanks’ to the United States. In a letter dated July 13, the deputy director general of foreign trade for India confirmed that “fingerboards made of rosewood and ebony is (sic) freely exportable.”

U.S. Fish and Wildlife offered no comment about the discrepancy. But people involved in the import and export of musical instruments and parts believe the US Department of Justice offered its own interpretation of Indian law. Even though India saw no reason for an enforcement action, the U.S. did.

“It is such an outrageous position – it has hurt Gibson tremendously – has criminalized Gibson and its workplace and its workers. It is an unsustainable position that they’re taking,” Mitchell says.

Something else to consider in all of this: Gibson uses the same wood, from many of the same suppliers and importers that nearly every other guitar company in America does. And they have not been targeted. You might ask – why?

Rewind the clock two years. Gibson was raided in 2009 and a shipment of rosewood and ebony from Madagascar was seized. Gibson argued that the wood was obtained through proper channels, but U.S. Fish and Wildlife argued that Gibson could not adequately prove that the wood came from legitimate sources. Again, the issue of ‘finishing’ the wood came into play. Had Gibson imported finished parts from Madagascar instead of ‘blanks,’ it would have been perfectly legal.

No charges have been filed as of yet, and Gibson is fighting in court to get its wood back.
It could be that the Madagascar issue put Gibson front and center on the Department of Justice's radar screen.

There was a discrepancy in the import of this latest shipment of wood. It was listed with an improper tariff code, which the importer, Luthiers Mercantile International of Windsor, Calif., claimed was a clerical error by a junior employee and tried to clear up. But rather than talk to the importer and Gibson about it, the Justice Department dispatched U.S. Fish and Wildlife and DHS agents to raid the Gibson compounds.

Gibson feels it has been unfairly targeted. “We are being singled out. Very much so,” says Mitchell. “Every music instrument company in the United States uses rosewood fingerboards. Period. And they’re in the same state – they’re buying from the same suppliers, they’re using the same shippers.”

Gibson has also been working hard to maintain proper sources of wood, working with the Forest Stewardship Council to insure its suppliers are certified. Gibson also works closely with the Rainforest Alliance on sustainable supplies of exotic woods. It’s a no-brainer for Gibson and other guitar manufacturers. If they can’t get the highly sought-after tone woods that artists crave, they just might go out of business.

Outside observers see a more sinister possibility in all of this. Henry Juszkiewicz, Gibson’s CEO, is a Republican, who has contributed to Republican candidates (as well as some Democratic candidates). Other guitar companies, which have not been targeted, are led by Democrats. Is there a political motivation to all of this? Neither Mitchell, nor Juszkiewicz will offer an opinion, but consider what Juszkiewicz told Neil Cavuto on "Your World."

“You know we've been pretty low key. We're a guitar company. We've been manufacturing guitars. We've been involved in the environmental movement. We’ve been trying to do the right thing in terms of sourcing. We really don’t know why they are picking on us.”

Read more: Is Fed Raid On Gibson Guitar Company Enforcing Policy . . . Or A Push To Target 'Made In The USA'? | Fox News

[Superman]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Maybe you should pay more attention to what is going on in the world before popping off.
You leave the impression that you only acknowledge what you LIKE and ignore everything you DON'T LIKE! It's either that or that you choose to be dishonest. Which is it?
You should probably be more careful not to interrupt when the adults are talking.

Doesn't surprise me at all, that's SOP for your ilk. Truth? Naw, don't like it.
BS that makes you feel good? Bring it on.
Warning, the following TRUTH will mess with the fantasy world you have chosen to live in:

Sammy, your nasty, insulting, arrogant, disrespectful, personal attacks are simply not welcome here. If you cannot learn to be at least minimally respectful ( and it seems crystal clear you indeed cannot ), then take your CNS propaganda, pretend it is "news," and "discuss" it on PARF where guys like you belong. Some good-natured ribbing is common here on OT, but you can't seem to tell the difference between that an caustic vitriol. What's more, I'm guessing that in person you're another one of those nicey-nice guys who smile and pretend to have a pleasant personality. Get a shrink, dude. We're all pretty tired of your attacks.

[slodave]

Well, jeez, since the Lacy Act was amended in 2008 to include wood, maybe the republicans are in on this too??? Maybe they fear that Juszkiewicz is getting too powerful.

Yeah sure it's political. What a joke.