Was I an ass??

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

... do you ever return an item you bought from a store because you found the same thing cheaper somewhere else? Does that constitute a binding contract? I would say it does because in that situation you actually PAID something for the item and the seller now has to refund you that money. ...

I haven't done it, but if the store has a "satisfaction guaranteed" or "return for any reason" within xx days policy, then you'd be fine returning it.

One could also just contact them and ask if they'll price match.

[McLovin]

The dealership can't come to the handshake with dirty hands, and expect the other guy to have clean hands. That's not being "ethical," that's being a sucker.

If Nathan's Dad and I shook hands on a $400 bet on the Cowboys game, and I won, I have no question in my mind he would pay.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

...I did not expect such a lashing...

Two human characteristics seem to be an eagerness to join in and 'pile on' and to express self righteousness.

Your OP apparently contains the triggers.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Eric, I would interpret this answer as no, but you will give a competitive deal. I understand the concept of value. Example (exaggerated for clarity); bought the car at the local dealership because of its support of the local community library.

There isn't a yes or no. Best deal? What the heck does that mean?

I've lost $2500 selling a new car before, is that the best deal? Or is losing $200 okay? Or $200 profit on a fast-selling hard-to-get-model? Or??? There is no 'best'.

Let's put it this way: the BEST price you'll get from ME is my FIRST price. It's your decision whether to take my deal or go shopping. I won't feel bad if you buy from someone else. Most won't. That's good enough for me. I won't match someone else's price either. Let them determine their own price structure. The market will determine whether they've calculated their value-add correctly.

By sticking to my guns on price, people know there's no funny business. Ever. They can make good decisons without second-guessing whether a better deal (from me) could be had.

Someone will always sell something for less. Always.

See OP's dealer #2.... all they had to do was undercut the other dealer. I once worked for an ultra-competitive high-volume Nissan dealer. We were either #1 or #2 in the region every month. I could quote a new Nissan at a $200 net profit and the other dealer (let's call them #2) would take our price and quote a $100 net loss.... ONLY if the customer's zipcode was near us. They would bite their nose to spite their face, figuring they'd 'pay' to steal a customer, or force us to lose money on a deal where the customer was likely going to buy from us anyway. As the General Sales Manager, I stopped the practice of matching price and guess what..... we were still #1 as many months out of the year, but we were more profitable so we could offer better services to retain customers.

Don't like my business model? Like McLovin said, it's a free country. Just don't b!tch when things go sideways.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Here is the deal...I would have done my f'ing homework.

That is difference.

You clearly have a price for you, what you stand for. I don't. Don't drag me into your moral dilemma...and I don't care if it's 99% for your weakness versus what I believe.

Stop being lame.

Seahawk, with all due respect you are being a bit condescending here and it's not becoming of you.

You have no idea how much "homework" I did. I did my homework. I allowed myself to get talked down by the sales manager on the way out the door. Yes, that was my mistake. I had an offer for $28100 from Dealer B which was cash price and would have been $28600 with the 0% financing. I didn't figure it was worth it to argue over $100. My mistake I guess.

I'm not sure what you are referring to about my "weakness" except you are jumping to some awfully big conclusions about someone you do not know based on what you have read on an internet thread.

[gprsh924]

I would have walked out after they jerked me around on the price.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Seahawk, with all due respect you are being a bit condescending here and it's not becoming of you.

You have no idea how much "homework" I did. I did my homework. I allowed myself to get talked down by the sales manager on the way out the door. Yes, that was my mistake. I had an offer for $28100 from Dealer B which was cash price and would have been $28600 with the 0% financing. I didn't figure it was worth it to argue over $100. My mistake I guess.

I'm not sure what you are referring to about my "weakness" except you are jumping to some awfully big conclusions about someone you do not know based on what you have read on an internet thread.

You're arguing that two wrongs make a right.

YES, the original dealer did something wrong in your eyes. But you got past it (I wouldn't have, I would have walked) and THEN YOU MADE A DEAL.

Paul's point, if I've got it right, is that you knew of their 'wrongs' before you chose to shake hands on a re-negotiated deal. Once you made that new deal, the next ethical dilemma came when dealer B starting enticing you with better and better deals until you reached 'your price' to ditch ethics and jump ship, justifying your actions by stating that dealer A was unethical first. The second 'wrong' in this story is yours to own. But it's okay, right?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Like I said, to me this is on a continuum. Some people here (Seahawk, artplumber, etc) feel like they would have just given up the $1000 and chalked it up to their own mistake for shaking on a deal that wasn't the best they could get.

I suspect even Seahawk would have a point where he would have to break the deal. Maybe it's $1000, or $5000, or $50,000 but the breaking point is there somewhere.

You jumped to some awfully large conclusions, Sport.

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Seahawk, with all due respect you are being a bit condescending here and it's not becoming of you.

You have no idea how much "homework" I did. I did my homework. I allowed myself to get talked down by the sales manager on the way out the door. Yes, that was my mistake.

I'm not sure what you are referring to about my "weakness" except you are jumping to some awfully big conclusions about someone you do not know based on what you have read on an internet thread.

You made a mistake, wanted validation for not owning up to a deal. Sorry...condescending doesn't begin to cover it.

You were a military officer, right?

[Nathans_Dad]

So let me get this straight Seahawk.

You walk into a shop. You buy a product for $50,000. You then find the same product at another shop for $1000. You are saying you would not return the $50,000 product?

Oh, and don't call me Sport. It's childish.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

owning up to a deal.

How was this a deal if nothing was signed or no deposits changed hands?

Why do we pretend that a handshake is meaningful? It isn't. It is a moment of understanding between parties that is not legally binding.

Seahawk... why are you bring the military into this?

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

I started the thread to get honest opinions. I guess I have gotten that. I did not expect such a lashing from a vocal minority. If I had set up a poll I bet it would be 90% "no" and 10% "yes"....

You asked

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

I started the thread to get honest opinions. I guess I have gotten that. I did not expect such a lashing from a vocal minority. If I had set up a poll I bet it would be 90% "no" and 10% "yes". To me, it seems like the "yes" people are acting like I left some woman standing at the altar or stole money from a bank, that's all.

I guess you can take your personal code of ethics as far as you want, do you ever return an item you bought from a store because you found the same thing cheaper somewhere else? Does that constitute a binding contract? I would say it does because in that situation you actually PAID something for the item and the seller now has to refund you that money. Like I said, to me this is on a continuum. Some people here (Seahawk, artplumber, etc) feel like they would have just given up the $1000 and chalked it up to their own mistake for shaking on a deal that wasn't the best they could get. Most of the others on the thread are ranging in opinions from "nah, no biggie" to "hooray for you, screw em!!"

Like I said, everyone can take their ethical code to whatever level they desire. I think that a large portion of society would have broken the deal over $100 or $200 while I was willing to lose that money and keep the deal intact. Once it got to $400 plus more money for my trade, that's where I drew the line. I suspect even Seahawk would have a point where he would have to break the deal. Maybe it's $1000, or $5000, or $50,000 but the breaking point is there somewhere.

Oh, the other reason for starting the thread was because I was bored sitting in the finance office of the dealer I bought the car from...

Rick,
My word is my bond. If that is a tongue lashing so be it. I talk in my head with a very reasonable tone for everything I have written on this thread (ok except for the "don't cut me off"). As a physician, and more especially as a man, that is the way it is. I would not have done a deal with those guys given the way it started out, but YMMV. So whatever you choose to think about a price that is a deal breaker for me - It wouldn't happen. And a deal (especially a handshake) is above simply paying for an item. I have walked away from deals and lost money doing so, because I was unsure I could say for sure the "deal is done."

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Macroni

How was this a deal if nothing was signed or no deposits changed hands?

Why do we pretend that a handshake is meaningful? It isn't. It is a moment of understanding between parties that is not legally binding.

Seahawk... why are you bring the military into this?

A handshake might mean anything to you but I know many farmers and ranchers that make 6 figures deals all the time with nothing more than a handshake.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

So let me get this straight Seahawk.

You walk into a shop. You buy a product for $50,000. You then find the same product at another shop for $1000. You are saying you would not return the $50,000 product?

Oh, and don't call me Sport. It's childish.

Enough, Nathan. This has gotten childish, no doubt in your mind my fault.

I know the value of a dollar and always do my due diligence. I have not and will not ever default on a deal...we've all been burned, it is how we learn.

Here is what I think happened: You were looking for a car, had a price in mind, one that made sense for your budget and the car you wanted. You shook hands when that number was met, thought you'd made a good deal.

Then you got a lower number and changed your mind.

It really is that simple.

Oh, and don't ever question my ethic, Sport.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by 968rz

Dealer A tricked you to get you in the door, then raised the price above everyone else and you would still deal with them? I would have walked out the first time the raised the price.

This. I walk right out.

You would not have started this thread if you had a clear conscience about it. You alread knew what the right thing to do was.

I never broke a promise to my ex wife, even when she was out whoring around.

It does not matter if the other guy is a scumbag(car salesman). I have screwed dealerships out of money every time I had the opportunity.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A handshake might mean anything to you but I know many farmers and ranchers that make 6 figures deals all the time with nothing more than a handshake.

Look at my handle.... do you think I know anything about dealing w/ farmers? Have you ever heard of an "act of god clause" it is in all of our grain contracts.

Why do you think I hold this discussion in such contempt..... In 2007, when commodity prices went through the roof do you know the type of shenanigans that went on?

Contracts themselves are only as strong as your willingness to enforce their terms....handshakes are even weaker.....

Ultimately, it does come down to honor but given the stakes even honor goes out the window.....

[Nathans_Dad]

To Seahawk:

Wow.

Ok, let's just agree you have no idea how I went about this deal and have made some conclusions which are honestly way off the mark.

I'm glad you have such high moral and ethical standards. I hope to someday attain your status. Thanks for your input.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I'm pretty sure Hubris and Vainglory are right up there with "breaking a non-binding agreement" (I guess this is classified as Greed) on the ladder of character flaws.

And frankly I'm seeing a lot more Hubris and Vainglory in this thread than Greed. Maybe even a little Wrath, while we're at it.

[RWebb]

for what it's worth, you did not have a legal contract (as others pointed out)

not sure what a deal is technically...

but even if you DID have a contract, the law promotes breaking contracts if a better "deal" is available (you have to pay any damages tho) - this is called "efficient breach"

it is part of capitalism and enshrined in the Uniform Commercial Code

but my earlier comment are about ethics, which is what I think many others are hitting on here --
I am a dance with who ya brung kind of person, but the thing is, what ethics do car dealers have? I think a lot of people have an answer on that one.

again, next time, just don't say anything definite; or call them and ask if they want to price match

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Ok, let's just agree you have no idea how I went about this deal and have made some conclusions which are honestly way off the mark.

No idea?

I think we have an idea because you told your story in your opening post. If there were other relevant points, why would you omit them?

Acting like an ass and BEING an ass are two very different things. Acting like an ass once in a while doesn't doom you to have people think you're an ass. Especially if you learn from your ass-like behavior. Disclaimer: I've acted like an ass more times than I can count. I try to learn from it.

Take it easy, there's things to learn here in our comments. For all of us.