Frack You

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by targa911S

I have seen people that can light their faucets. ".

Originally Posted by RWebb

or we could make sure the fracking companies extract the gas with minimal pollution

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

Are you sure that they aren't?

The truth is out there somewhere. I have no doubt that "Big Money" (regardless of industry) will cut corners and becoming lying SOBs chasing $ however...it has become the "American way" .

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by RWebb

or we could make sure the fracking companies extract the gas with minimal pollution

They've already asked for exemptions from water pollution laws, so I'd say they aren't planning to extract the gas with minimal pollution.

[Eric 951]

[QUOTE=Taz's Master;6276313]

Originally Posted by Eric 951

New in your area? Where in "Steeler country" are you? They've been pumping oil out of the ground in Western Pennsylvania longer than anywhere in the world, and fracking isn't a new procedure there.

From what I've learned, the dangers are real, but they are primarily incident rather than systemic dangers. Bad casings can introduce natural gas into the water table, and frack water spills can and do happen and they poison water supplies and livestock. Although the huge water usage in the fracking procedures is a systemic concern that I'm not comfortable with.

There are real concerns about the safety of the operations, and the gas companies are intentionally deceptive in their efforts at dealing with landowners. I'm especially interested in 2 dynamics:

#1 the landowners are the leaseholders. In Western PA, when you buy property you buy surface rights, the GOM rights have been sold off, and usually don't come when you buy property. In N. Centeral, PA that hasn't been the case, most property retains the GOM rights, and the gas companies aren't dealing with people who live out of the area and simply want a return on their investment, but rather the people who live where the development is happening.

#2 much of the outcry comes from people who made big money living and working in cities (in my opinion cities are far worse for the environment than a gas or oil field), and they don't want their bucolic retirement spoiled by the economic opportunity afforded their idyllic rural community.

I am in the heart of it in SW PA and natural gas fracking is certainly "new" to many of the residents here.

The giant PR campaign regarding natural gas and marcellus shale has opened alot of people's eyes to the situation as well.( 5) years ago most people here had no idea what fracking or Marcellus Shale was, now with the TV/radio, billboard, adverts, endless land-men, public forums, landowner groups, etc. (not to mention the drilling rigs, pads, containment ponds, water haulers, and every other pick-up sporting a bull-bar and TX, OK, WY plates) every one in this area knows about it. It has exploded into the conciousness and is "new".

People who have never heard of the process and are suddenly immersed in all facets of it are inclined to think the process is a new technology(I have witnessed this first-hand).

There are alot of landowners in SW PA that didn't have their mineral rights--however it is not a blanket truth and there are plenty of landowners that do have their rights and can lease them to drillers.

I know farmers whose parents or grandparents sold or leased their rights decades ago for as little as 50.00/acre. If those leases have been renewed, or are still in effect, then those landowners get nothing and can't do a thing about it if Chesepeake has subsequently purchased the rights and wants to set a pad with (7) wells right in the middle of a pasture or corn field--including building of the access roads and can put compressor stations, storage tanks, transmission lines anywhere ont he property(except within 200 yards of a structure).
Yes, this definately sucks and makes people angry.

On the flip side, if you have your rights and leased them to a driller for 3-5,000 an acre up-front binus opayment, and get a 16-20% royalty for all the gas and oil they pump out of your unit, that is alot of additonal income, and has created a few "instant millionaires" in town.

If the (2) landowners cited above are next-door neighbors, obviously this is going to create tension, and pit the haves aginst the have-nots, and a bandwagon-urge to "get the drillers out of town, because they are ruining the environment"

Are there alot of environmental questions regarding drilling/fracking which need regulated and answered--yes.

Is it as dangerous and reckless and certain groups would have you believe--no

Are drillers looking out for the land-owners best interests--no

can you as a landowner have a good relationship with a drilling company--yes

This is an issue I take seriously and have invested alot of time and effort to understand.

[Taz's Master]

I lived about 1-1.5 hrs north of Eric 951. I heard fracking used in conversations better than a decade ago, so I guess location or how you define new is relative.

Are there alot of environmental questions regarding drilling/fracking which need regulated and answered--yes.

Is it as dangerous and reckless and certain groups would have you believe--no

Are drillers looking out for the land-owners best interests--no

can you as a landowner have a good relationship with a drilling company--yes

This is an issue I take seriously and have invested alot of time and effort to understand.

That is a better summation than most sources are likely to provide.

As far as lighting faucets, I owned property between Titusville and Oil City Pennsylvania where petroleum leaked out of the ground. I assume that there are aquifirs in the area that are naturally contaminated with methane. I also believe that there is a risk that through faulty installation a well could contaminate an aquifir. Much of the current fracking discussion centers on very deep methane deposits, well below domestic water sources, and I have not seen information that would lead me to believe that fracking would lead to higher incidences of water contamination (other than through surface spills).

They've already asked for exemptions from water pollution laws, so I'd say they aren't planning to extract the gas with minimal pollution.

Possibly. I'm not familiar with the exemptions the gas companies want or the reasoning behind those requests. Water is definately my biggest concern, usage, the impacts on aquifirs of the drilling and contamination, but my understanding is, as far as fracking goes, the extreme usage demands are the most serious, the drilling or contamination impacts (aside from surface spills) would be there absent the fracking.

[kach22i]

I saw something on this topic on the CBC or PBS a couple of months ago.

Benzine in the water table not good.

Lots of birth defects and cancer being reported.

Source of image, not an article on the topic.
http://ping-dk.blogspot.com/2009/10/breaking-benzine-barrier.html

[targa911S]

I live an hour NW of Eric. The buzz is everywhere about this, and I agree that to a lot of the old farm boys here this is new tech. Plus they all stand to make a lot of money compared to what they are used to having. Maybe not a lot of money by "city" standards but a huge amount of money in this depressed area. Keep in mind this is the rust belt, they are way ahead of the rest of the U.S. in the economic depression and job loss. It started here in the late 70's early 80's. when big steel left the valley. This is money from heaven around here.

[944Larry]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A coal powered 911 is gonna suck.

yep, but a well set-up coal burning 944 would be sweet!

[RWebb]

Energy industry develops nontoxic fracking fluids
Associated Press | The Register-Guard | Eugene, Oregon




BTW - NG has only 1/2 the CO2 emissions of coal - and none of the mercury pollution (nerve toxin)

[fastfredracing]

Just found out that our neighbor (175 acres ) right smack across the street from us, has signed on for a surface lease, and the well head will be , basically in my front yard. Frackin' frackers. Us, and our neighbor behind us are the only holdouts in the area. It is everywhere around us. I'm about 30 minutes away from David. I just did not want blindly to sign anything before I was better informed.
This along with a 77 home housing development coming in down the street, has us looking to move in the not so distant future.
I spent a weekend in the National Forest this summer. I had not been there in about 7 years, and I was shocked at the infrastructure of pipes, holding tanks, trucks, and workers everywhere.

[Buckterrier]

So our energy costs will soon go done right?

[Instrument 41]

Well if Natural gas doesn't come up in price there won't be much frackin going on. Just north of Baton Rouge into southern MS there WAS a lot of activity but all they were getting is gas. Theres no money in gas. Most have left and are now in south Texas where they are getting wet streams that have oil.

[RWebb]

there is a huge glut of NG right now - so much that SASOL is building a plant in So. La. to turn it into liquid fuel (synfuels... finally)

so yes, energy costs should go down

NG is also killing off coal plants and hindering PV solar and wind energy plans

the technology to get at the shale beds is what has changed everything - yes, Fred you are in the middle of an industrial operation; hope it does not affect you too much

[Instrument 41]

One positive of low gas prices is that its allowing a number of plants down here to expand. If you need a lot of heat for your process or make a lot of steam natural gas is cheap. For those who don't know about our chemical plants...we have about 250 plants along the MS river from just north of Baton rouge to south of new Orleans. we are having a great year so far.

[M.D. Holloway]

Randy,
I'm actually finishing up the first vol. of my 5 vol series on energy - guess what the topic is? Fracing!!!

I expect you to buy a copy! hee hee

[RWebb]

hee hee!!!

[Scott R]

They offered me 5k per acre and 15% on royalties, oh and free gas for the life of the well. Still don't want it on my land. Big trucks, lots of noise, not what I pictured my mountain property to be.

It is however attractive given the new home fuel cells coming out that use cng. I could finally drop the solar ans my sub-par heating system.

[RWebb]

I wouldn't drop the solar - can you post info on the CNG fuel cells tho?

[unclebilly]

Here's something I NEVER EVER thought I would say - Sammy is right!

I am an inventor of several hydraulic fracturing techniques (patents issued in Canada and Australia applied for in the US and other oil and gas countries) that are in common use today in Canada, the US, and Russia.

If your rural neighbor 2 miles away spills PCBs or some other nautious substance on the ground at his place, does it affect your drinking water (unless he is up hill from you)? No, right? How does the typically fresh water that we pump into the ground with trace amounts of guar (edible plant product) and sand affect ground water 2 miles above? There is a thing called gravity (a relatively new concept for some of these anti frac types) that even works underground. Further more, the oil and gas we are going after has not contaminated the ground water in he kazillion years it has been there, why would it now?

The company I work for was one of the first (2005) to develop frac chemicals that pass microtox testing. To give you an idea, no shampoo will pass microtox, not even baby shampoo. Microtox chemicals will not harm living cells.

Not everything we pump is benign but often we are pumping produced formation water back into that same formation, often this formation water contains KCl, traces of oil, Barium Sulfate but we are just putting his back where it came from. If we pump a hydrocarbon product into a hydrocarbon bearing formation, what difference does it make?

With regard to the top secret frac chemicals, we have always had some level of disclosure. This year we have to disclose everything in Canada and the US which is no big deal.

Oh, and I am also a rural land owner. On every piece of land adjacent to my 1/4 section, there is a gas well with at least one frac in it. These are shallow wells (~1200m) or 3/4 of a mile. I assure you that this has not affected my drinking water or anybody else's around here.

I still can't get over the fact at Sammy and I agree about something...

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I wouldn't drop the solar - can you post info on the CNG fuel cells tho?

Don't count on fuel cells, prior to getting into the oil and gas industry, I wasted 6 years of my life developing fuel cells. I an an inventor on several patents on fuel cell stack technology and internal reforming (on cell conversion of hydrocarbons to hydrogen), I even designed part of the fuel cell stack used in the BMW hydrogen concept vehicles in 2001 / 2002.

The company I worked for up to 2005 has made leaps and bounds with the technology and still has a stack based on one of my old designs but the technology is far from commercially viable for you and me. It seems like the holy grail of $.06/kWh is far from achievable given cell degradation, input costs, etc. if you are prepared to pay 5 - 10 times your current energy costs, this technology is for you.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Scott R

They offered me 5k per acre and 15% on royalties, oh and free gas for the life of the well. Still don't want it on my land. Big trucks, lots of noise, not what I pictured my mountain property to be.

It is however attractive given the new home fuel cells coming out that use cng. I could finally drop the solar and my sub-par heating system.

Having been down the CNG fuel cell road and back, you need to ask yourself - do I want a furnace that makes electricity or a fuel cell generator that makes heat? An efficient fuel cell generator only makes enough heat to sustain itself. If it is making more heat, it is combusting excess fuel and becomes a furnace and is no longer efficient.

Despite the fact that SOFCs run at 600 - 800C, if you are capturing any heat from the exhaust for heating your home or water, the thing is not efficient. Our 5kW units were only ~30-35% efficient but to get there almost all of the heat in the exhaust was used to preheat the intake air and overcome the heat consumed by reforming natural gas into hydrogen, CO, CO2, and water (steam reforming is an endothermic reaction).

I guess my point is that if you want a furnace that makes electricity or a generator that makes heat there are better ways to do this including running a diesel generator and using the engine cooling circuit to heat your home. If you put thermoelectric generators in your furnace, you could extract some wasted heat to make electricity but barely enough to charge a cell phone.

If you want to save the world, extract power from tidal currents (not the up and down of the tide) but the lateral movements of water through narrow passages. There is a huge energy flux, it is predictable, and you can extract this power without upsetting the gods and destroying the environment. Of course Greenpeace and The Sea Shephard Society may take a different view.