It's started - Exodus from CA

[RWebb]

can't you retrofit to satisfy AQMD?

gas or diesel?

[daepp]

Retrofitted the newest truck - $15K. Truck might sell for $10K. Replacement cost is $85K.

[nostatic]

David - all reasonable complaints and you have my sympathy. I will say that many of those are endemic to 21st century living/business ownership throughout the country (eg trial lawyers) rather than being CA-specific. I have no doubt that some aspects of CA laws have swung too far in one direction. Part of that is due to them being on the other side of the pendulum in the past (labor and AQ). The trick is balance. China is learning that the hard way at the moment, especially with AQ.

As for traffic I don't know that more lanes will solve it. There are more systemic issues that need to be addressed. Urban sprawl is a major culprit (driven by the desire for real estate profits) and instead lifestyles and business functions need to change. For the life of me I don't understand people who will buy a home that is over an hour away from where they work. There is a mindset of what constitutes "the American Dream" that often doesn't change with the times. For instance I rent as I was priced out and then thankfully wasn't stubborn enough to buy at the peak of the market just because. Many aspects to the decision, but we're not in the 60's or 70's or 80's or 90's any more. Things change. Adapt or die is the rule of nature but humans seem to think we're above that.

I am 3rd generation SoCal and love it here. I also am realistic - there are things I won't be able to do due to costs. At some point that may drive me from the state but it'll be my choice and I won't blame the state for it. There are reasons so many people live here and will continue to live here.

[Burnin' oil]

Too many damn people here.

[Hugh R]

Webb, my wife used to work at an elementary school district as an administrator. She is an administrator of a different school district now.

The AQMD, under state law was forcing them to put in particulate traps for their six standby generators because the diesel generators were withing 1,000 feet of a school. Duh, they were actually on the school grounds. They test fired them for 30 minutes once a month, after school hours. The cost for the p-traps were $15-$25K per generator. Each generator cost over $100K when they bought them and got AQMD permits for them 5-6 years ago. The school district ended up selling them on some state surplus auction site for out of state sale, and never replaced them. As a result, with no emergency generators, those schools withdrew their listings a Red Cross emergency centers.

Let's recap: Law passed to protect kids from diesel particulate at schools; generators tested after school hours, no exposure to the kiddies.

If emergency generators are used in a real emergency the kids would be sent home due to the emergency; no kiddie exposure to diesel particulate.

No emergency generators for use as a Red Cross shelter.

Where is the exposure to the kiddies and who wins or loses? The CA legislature that made the AQMD pass the law gets to feel good that they did something "for the kids". Who loses? The school and the Red Cross.

What was the point again?

BTW, I helped the school district gratis, and I have over 30 years of experience in working with the AQMD.

The exempt limit for the rule was less than 50 HP, most of those generators were 65 to 95 HP, we proposed rev limiters, fuel flow limits, everything we could think off. The AQMD couldn't accept any of those alternatives because the model numbers of the generators were written into the legislation, i.e., no exemption because they were specifically named items in the legislation.

Don't get me wrong, I love CA. I moved here 34 years ago with nothing and will retire in about 5 year very comfortably. CA has been very good to me. Great place to live if you're working, but pricey if you're retired. My ex-BIL was here about the same amount of time and moved back to TN when he retired. He says his cost of living in Marysville, TN is about 40% of his living in our bedroom community just north of the City of Los Angeles. I'm not sure I want to move back to TN, (lived in Oak Ridge as a teenager) too humid.

I may buy a summer place in Coeur d' Alene, ID and keep my condo in Oxnard, CA for the Winter, and live in ID for six months + one day so I don't pay CA income taxes.

[RWebb]

Let's recap: Law passed to protect kids from diesel particulate at schools; generators tested after school hours, exposure to the kiddies b/c the fine particulates (which are the MOST dangerous) stay in the air.

[Cajundaddy]

Well for better or worse I am probably stuck in Cali. I am 2nd gen Californian and I own a local business, have roots, friends and family here. It rains 10 days/yr, my heat/AC bills are approaching zero and I own a comfortable home overlooking a golf course. There are 5 Porsche friendly road race tracks within a 2 hr drive and I do like the beach and mountains.

The down side is cost of living is up, government regs have seriously impacted my business over the last 20 yrs and I have no meaningful representation in either Sac or DC. Sac has painted themselves into a fiscal dark corner and since I am approaching the end of my high earning years I am unlikely to help them dig out. That will sadly come on the backs of my kids and grand kids.

For all it's promises and problems, bright energetic people can always make a go of it here. Space-X Technologies might be one good example of this when so many said it could never be done, and certainly never in California.

[daepp]

C'mon Webb - once a month for 30 minutes and the particles will still be in the air. You really believe this?

[daepp]

Webb - this is all true!

(Washington, DC) - The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) has filed suit on behalf of Dr. James E. Enstrom, a UCLA research professor who was terminated after he blew the whistle on junk environmental science and scientific misconduct at the University of California (UC).

"The facts of this case are astounding," said David French, Senior Counsel of the ACLJ. "UCLA terminated a professor after 35 years of service simply because he exposed the truth about an activist scientific agenda that was not only based in fraud but violated California law for the sake of imposing expensive new environmental regulations on California businesses. UCLA's actions were so extreme that its own Academic Freedom Committee unanimously expressed its concern about the case."

Dr. Enstrom, a research professor in UCLA's Department of Environmental Health Sciences, published important peer-reviewed research demonstrating that fine particulate matter does not kill Californians. Also, Dr. Enstrom assembled detailed evidence that contends powerful UC professors and others have systematically exaggerated the adverse health effects of diesel particulate matter in California, knowing full well that these exaggerations would be used by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to justify draconian diesel vehicle regulations in California. In addition, the complaint argues that he exposed the fact that the lead author of the key CARB Report used to justify the diesel regulations did not have the UC Davis Ph.D. degree that he claimed. Instead, according to the suit, this “scientist” bought a fake Ph.D. for $1,000 from a fictional "Thornhill University."

[Hugh R]

Let's recap, kids went home before they tested. The law is for within 1,000 feet of a school property. I'd understand if it was for continuously operated diesel stationary sources, but not for standby emergency generators that are fired up after the kids have left school. BTW, all of of those schools are within 1,000 feet of major roads where diesel trucks travel all day long.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by daepp

C'mon Webb - once a month for 30 minutes and the particles will still be in the air. You really believe this?

don't be silly - of course the particulates are still in the air - there just aren't many of them compared to a longer run time or more freq. runs

hugh's example (which he is so enamored of that he often trots out) is just like a stop sign - you slide thru it a 3 am- maybe we need to change the law so stop means only stop if there is likely to be traffic, kids or pets there

[Cajundaddy]

I think the tide is slowly turning against the Calif enviro-nazi movement as rational people are beginning to see the light. Our air and water is infinitely cleaner than it was growing up in the 60s but when relative risk is applied to many of these somewhat extreme regulations, wise heads will prevail.

I am not sure why taxpayer dollars are needed for school BU generators anyways. It makes sense for a hospital or industry with sensitive processes but schools? I don't see the value. It seems like a holdover from the Gray Davis/Enron power wars.

[Hugh R]

I guess if you want to make an argument about having zero diesel particulate in the air, like RWebb seems to be advocating, then you should look at ALL diesel exhaust. To its credit, the AQMD has cleaned up the LA Harbor local diesel exhaust air concentration a lot. Randy and I can disagree, but its a risk based assessment. Testing monthly for 30 minutes versus getting rid of Red Cross emergency sites because of no backup electrical power, that is the question. The AQMD has de facto said they'd rather that this school district NOT be able to help the sick, or wounded in an earthquake [yes we get them here, some times bad like the Sylmar and Northridge Earthquakes] which left 10's of thousands without running water, electricity, sanitation, natural gas, nothing.

Would you rather have NO emergency water supply, or the water in your swimming pool which may well have too much Total Dissolved Solids to meet EPA drinking water criteria? And the EPA saying you can't drink that water because it might be bad for you, so die of thirst.

[varmint]

it is not simply the laws. it is that some are enforced and others not. any small businessman with an address and a bank account is tormented with regulations. while millions of illegal aliens in unregistered uninsured cars roam the highways with little fear of consequences.

[daepp]

Webb - the science on diesel particulates is bogus.

Any use your common sense - do you not see the in both cases AQMD permitted these as is? Imagine if this was happening to you! You follow their rules, you buy a legal product, and effectively the government confiscates it.

[Hugh R]

You buy a generator for $100K, you permit it, and five years later the gubmit says you have to spend $15-$20 to retrofit it. Imagine if they did that to your p-car, although in a way they are. In CA they've lower the pass SMOG check pass NOx levels on my 911 for eight years. Like I have new technology available to me? I can still pass, but in the next 10-20 years I think they may well regulate my car out of existence. It was supposed to be based on the model year, but every few years they lower the NOx limit for passing. I've called the CA Air Resources Board but have yet to get an answer. Again, what is the message? Move some where else.

[nynor]

http://video.dot.ca.gov/asx/d7cam1.asx

SB 5 at 405:

http://video.dot.ca.gov/asx/d12-5-s-rte-405.asx

[RWebb]

please don't mischaracterize my stmts. hughbert

daepp - your comment is bogus

[Burnin' oil]

WYDOT Travel Information Service (Cheyenne)

[Burnin' oil]

More to my liking.