Student loans

[Chocaholic]

It's really quite simple. If you want a "profession" (letters after your name like MD, PhD, RN, Atty, DVM, CPA, etc.), go to college and finance your education.

If you want a degree in anything that does not position you as a "professional", don't waste your time or our money.

[Jferr006]

My friend is in her medical residency..and has $500k in student loans to pay back. I'm sure she's deferred for a while but, residents don't get paid much and the hours blow.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Just one anecdote but common: my little sister-in-law got an English degree. No interest in writing, no interest in teaching, she got that degree because it was of interest to her and easy. Plus all you need is a degree to be successful in life, right? Thus far she has had a variety of dead end low paying jobs that have nothing to do with her degree, and is currently a stay at home mom mainly because her wage won't cover daycare. She is considering going to cosmetology school because it's a job that actually interests her, and she can make more money than she has with her degree. That college was really money well spent.......

[RWebb]

wow

ok....

1. Scott - Obama pretty much got the banks out of sticking it to students via loans just last year (see your OP)

2. despite outliers and anecdotes, a college grad. on average has a huge earnings potential increment over a HS graduate

3. among college majors, it is difficult to predict earnings potential of that graduated major - e.g. engineering majors go thru periods of oversupply & right now graphics arts major are in super demand (for web design)

a college degree is about education - not training - the goal is to produce a productive citizen flexible enough to change careers and follow the shifts in the economy (and make informed decisions about voting & etc.); and it is VERY clear that our economy shifts quite rapidly

(no, I don't have a cute cartoon on these points)

4. another function of college - esp. the elite ones - is networking; this used to be a huge effect at Yale & etc.; with the rise of a more merit based admissions system is has been reduced but is still important - even a lower level state school

5. in my field (science) a PhD is not even an entry level degree; several years post-doc are needed to get any permanent or semi-permanent job; so, the comment that a doctorate is only valuable for teaching is way off base - maybe it applies to the liberal arts

6. and that rings up my final point - in some areas (liberal arts) you can self-educate; but in others science & engineering), I do not think you can - so tell your offspring to choose wisely

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

you have 2 dumb things...
the 'student'..
Government involvement..

as far as the trade (blue collar ) folk...
nuthin but respect from my end..
just a mechanic some may say....
well I have to make an appointment to see him..

Rika

Originally Posted by id10t

Rikao's image makes my point. Just *what* job(s) does such a degree qualify you for? You could go another year and teach high school social studies, you could go on for a full masters degree - but in what? Or a doctorate... so you can teach *other* people seeking this degree...

Really? Do you really want THAT person to teach kids? I think that it part of the problem were having in this country. People with value at an extreme are teaching our children.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Really? Do you really want THAT person to teach kids? I think that it part of the problem were having in this country. People with value at an extreme are teaching our children.

Dunno, depends on how good they are at getting the students to learn... my point was though, with that degree, choices for jobs that don't involve asking customers if they want fries with that, or perhaps a biscotti to go wtih their latte, are few and far between and certainly not able to pay a living wage *and* enough to pay off 100k in student loan debt.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Just to qualify,

I'm 56, my friends went to college and ended up costing $20K, WTF happened?

That's a good question and I would love to know the answer. My BS in engineering cost about $15k back in the '70s.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I agree with you that college is more than trade school. I would be proud to have my kid grow up to be a good tradesman. I have the greatest respect for the trades.
I do believe whoever is handing out these loans needs to look at the earning potential of someone with, say, a BA in art history. They may be well rounded and delightful people, but well rounded doesn't pay back loans.
There is a theory that college is so expensive because it is so easy to get money to pay for it. An educated populace is essential for the future of our country, and it is in our best interest to encourage kids to go to college, but I think the availability of guaranteed loans should be dependent on the course of study and performance of the student.

Trade schools aren't cheap either. Where/what are these high paying trade school jobs at?

I agree that college costs are out of control and that some students are carrying a huge loan burden - I just don't see much choice. A high school education doesn't cut it

I think we (USA) is entering a time where many will be over educated in certain job fields because they can't find anything else.

[LSA]

It's a shame the university system doesn't have more ppot minded people running it. Like Rick said they spend the money on whatever they want with no repercussions. On my campus they closed the main cross street that ran through the middle of campus and turned it into some walkway garden bs area. So now there's only the circuit that goes around and they want to turn that into a one way street which is absurd. Fortunately tuition is extremely cheap comparatively and I'm about to graduate.

I'm in a similar situation as Gprsh. Then again compared to those who spent upwards of 50k for a degree in chicano studies I went to a Jc first then went got a degree in IT/CS as well as worked so I have 5 years of experience in the field which has been far more educational.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by tweezers74

Interesting conversation. If loans were dished out purely on earning potential, then I would think you would have a major abundance of a particular job and a deficiency in another, even though it may be needed. And there are other factors that make a job desirable other than money, for example stability.

If there is an abundance of candidates for a particular profession the earning potential is going to go down due to supply and demand and it will become harder to get loans for that major. The bottom line is - will you be able to pay off the loan? Stability, personal growth, etc are all wonderful, but should an individual get them at someone else's expense? What does it do you a person's personal growth to know they owe thousands of dollars that they can't pay back?

[74-911]

I find it interesting that many of you seem to think you should only get student loans if you are on the "correct path" for the "right" job (apparently to be decided by who exactly isn't clear but apparently some beauracrat or banker). An odd idea as the mantra of most in PARF is get the government out of my life.

As to part of the problem being the inability to default on student loans. Let me clue you in. The reason this is so as at one time it was rather common for students to run up huge loan amounts for law/med school etc. then immediately default on them before starting their new careers with all debt absolved in bankrupty. This is just another example of the law of unintended consequences that our government excels at passing.

And last but not least, how many of you work in fields having nothing to do with your degree? Myself and many others I know are in this category. I have a BS in chemistry/microbiology and never spent one minute in a lab after graduating. I ended up a partner in a software firm (with absolutely no formal education at all in IT technology of any kind) and made a pretty damned good living at it.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Trade schools aren't cheap either. Where/what are these high paying trade school jobs at?

They may not start out high, but it's a lot better to start out at $40k a year after 2-3 yrs. of trade school or apprenticeship AND no student loan debt with skills that will never not be in high demand than to get out of college in five years with $100k in debt and still the same starting salary. BTW, does anyone make it out of undergrad in four yrs. anymore?

In AZ you will never be unemployed if you work in the HVAC biz. You might be slow a few mos. of the year, but your phone will ring off the hook from May to Sept. The place I use had a guy who was older than me who, after a few years, got an offer he couldn't refuse from the local Marriott hotel to be their HVAC manager. He was doing pretty well before that and they had to make him a ridiculous offer to steal him. There is upward mobility in the trades. And if you don't start out making a lot of money, at least you don't also start out with a mortgage-size debt load.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

That's a good question and I would love to know the answer. My BS in engineering cost about $15k back in the '70s.

This is more my point...

1990's= real estate always goes up in value...

2010= A college education always brings a bigger paycheck...

What have we learned?

The bankers are doing it to us again.



As long as we are throwing out antidotes....

Just out of high school one lady friend lamented that a friends brother was "throwing away his life" by attending seminary...
Her college degree? Archeology

He became a Chaplin in the Navy and now own three houses, putting two of his three daughters through school at USC, and he is serving as a Chaplin in Hawaii.

She is a live at home mom pumping out babies

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Trade schools aren't cheap either. Where/what are these high paying trade school jobs at?

Plumbers, electricians, auto technicians. All are in demand now, and as the economy improves they will be in greater demand. Yes, trade school isn't cheap, but an associates degree in plumbing isn't as expensive as college BS.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

That's a good question and I would love to know the answer. My BS in engineering cost about $15k back in the '70s.

I just checked my old alma mater and in-state students are paying $238 per credit hour. That works out to $30,464 for 128 hours. That is not including any other costs like housing or books etc, but is still acceptable. Out of state students get slapped with the $768 per hour rate. That works out roughly to $98k just in tuition for the same degree.

[LSA]

Originally Posted by 74-911

I find it interesting that many of you seem to think you should only get student loans if you are on the "correct path" for the "right" job (apparently to be decided by who exactly isn't clear but apparently some beauracrat or banker). An odd idea as the mantra of most in PARF is get the government out of my life....

It's not you can't or shouldn't get a loan, it's don't complain and feign shock when you find you can't get a 6 figure job to pay back the loan you took for underwater basket weaving.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by 74-911

I find it interesting that many of you seem to think you should only get student loans if you are on the "correct path" for the "right" job (apparently to be decided by who exactly isn't clear but apparently some beauracrat or banker). An odd idea as the mantra of most in PARF is get the government out of my life.

If the gov't. didn't back (uncollateralized) student loans with my tax money, I wouldn't care at all about the ease of getting loans for a PhD in basketweaving. As long as I'm not paying for it, knock yourself out. But as long as I am paying for it (which I don't want to do) or at least covering the risk, I'd like to see some actual sane underwriting decisions in the loan process.

Try getting a mortgage (say a 5/1 ARM) based on what you expect to earn in five years when the rate adjusts. Won't happen. Why, then, should we be giving loans to kids whose course of study gives them little or no chance of making enough money to repay the loan? If you want to major in transgender Chicano studies, be my guest. Just don't expect my tax dollars to insure the loan you'll never be able to repay. let the bank worry about, let them use their own money and I'm guessing they'll expect more than your signature on the papers.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

If the gov't. didn't back (uncollateralized) student loans with my tax money, I wouldn't care at all about the ease of getting loans for a PhD in basketweaving. As long as I'm not paying for it, knock yourself out. But as long as I am paying for it (which I don't want to do) or at least covering the risk, I'd like to see some actual sane underwriting decisions in the loan process.

+1
Why take out a loan for something as extravagant as knowledge that isn't marketable? There is nothing wrong with knowledge that isn't marketable, but it's a luxury not everyone should be afforded. As for underwriting, it would be a benefit to the student in that it would cause them to think seriously about a plan for their life. If a student can show a plan for paying back a loan for a degree in transgender hispanic BJs or whatever that was then go ahead and underwrite it, but it shouldn't be automatic.

[gacook]

Get a job at the college you want to attend (or want your kids to attend). In Arizona, at the UofA, if you work FOR the college (this includes janitors), tuition is $25/credit.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Just out of high school one lady friend lamented that a friends brother was "throwing away his life" by attending seminary...
Her college degree? Archeology

A close family friend went to Amer. Univ. for archaeology. Everyone thought she was nuts. From the summer before her senior year she was never unemployed for a single day. She traveled the world working on digs, living the dream. I've rarely met anyone whose studies and career were more fulfilling and geared toward their dreams and personality type.