ineresting study on adiction and society---

[lane912]

It's not the morphine, it's the size of the cage: Rat Park experiment upturns conventional wisdom about addiction - garry's subposthaven

Alexander's hypothesis was that drugs do not cause addiction, and that the apparent addiction to opiate drugs commonly observed in laboratory rats exposed to it is attributable to their living conditions, and not to any addictive property of the drug itself. He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can."


interested in the opinions on this-

what say you?

[Southbay356]

does the cage have 4 alloy wheels and the engine in the back ?

[stomachmonkey]

Alexander should test his theory personally and report back.

Me thinks he will change his tune.

[masraum]

I think that some people are more likely to become addicted than others. I think environment may also play a factor to some extent, but there are plenty of addicts that have a privileged, comfortable life as well as plenty of folks that are living a distressed life that are not addicts.

I think it's not nearly as simple as the statement in the OP.

[lane912]

and some people of privilege are trapped in a box in their mind-

[masraum]

Originally Posted by lane912

and some people of privilege are trapped in a box in their mind-

Yep. But it's not necessarily their environment as much as it's their mind.

[widgeon13]

Not being overly scientific at this point in my life I'd say the author is wrong (bat**** wrong). More liberal BS to blame on society, the hell with personal responsibility. Tell this to Amy Winehouse, oh wait, she's dead from addiction.

"So, if Rat Park is to be believed, drug addiction is a situation that arises from poor socioeconomic conditions. From literally being a rat in a cage. If you're a rat in a park, you'd rather hang out with your friends and explore the world around you."

[masraum]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Not being overly scientific at this point in my life I'd say the author is wrong (bat**** wrong). More liberal BS to blame on society, the hell with personal responsibility.

Excellent assessment.

[Bill Douglas]

It's the Gument's fault. Not givin' enough money to us poor folk.

[oldE]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

"So, if Rat Park is to be believed, drug addiction is a situation that arises from poor socioeconomic conditions. From literally being a rat in a cage. If you're a rat in a park, you'd rather hang out with your friends and explore the world around you."

The quote is putting forth a misunderstanding of the findings.

Nothing was said about socio-economic conditions in the findings. The reporter should take another look at the report. The stresses they mentioned were crowding and the lack of healthy stimulation. There are happy poor people, just as there are unhappy rich people.

I had an interesting discussion with a professor of psychology about the effects on people when you put too many of them in close proximity. She said they react like too many rats in a cage.

From this I get the message: for most people, if you are comfortable in your living conditions, you are less likely to look for an escape.

That's one reason why I avoid cities. I would find it difficult to live in those conditions.

Best
Les

[rsNINESOOPER]

seems he should step out of the laboratory and view the real world-

Meth is an epidemic in rural areas and not so much in congested cities.

alcohol affects people everywhere, anywhere, rich, poor, happy, sad, stressed, not stressed. Strangely some of the poorest always find a way to get their poison.

true that depression/ stress makes people who are more likely to have addiction problems weaker to resisting it or acting with self control but the premise of congested living being the only reason does not add up.

[Brian in VA]

The rats in the cage are isolated - I don't think the point of the study is overcrowding. The study author used a small cage & isolation to stress the animal. The study indicates stressed animals will take the drugs. He could just as easily have used shocks or something to stress them. So the point is stressed people treat it with drugs and on their own the drugs don't do much. Kind of interesting.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Not being overly scientific at this point in my life I'd say the author is wrong (bat**** wrong). More liberal BS to blame on society, the hell with personal responsibility.

I agree science is a crock. We need to go with our gut feelings. All we have to do is keep screaming, "It's your own fault!" at addicts and everything will be fine.

Yeah, that should have been in green.

[Crowbob]

So who's fault is the addiction then, Patrick? Are you also against telling people to stop it?

[M.D. Holloway]

His research is interesting. Siegal did considerable work in this area. He also found that housing conditiond did motivate rats as well as people to consume more alcohol. When there is more darkness than normal young rats drank more alcohol than normally and older rats drank more in conditions with more light...I have no clue what that means but i find it rather interesting.

If you get a chance read Intoxication by Ronald Siegel. It very well could be the 5th drive!

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by rsNINESOOPER

seems he should step out of the laboratory and view the real world-

Meth is an epidemic in rural areas and not so much in congested cities.

alcohol affects people everywhere, anywhere, rich, poor, happy, sad, stressed, not stressed. Strangely some of the poorest always find a way to get their poison.

true that depression/ stress makes people who are more likely to have addiction problems weaker to resisting it or acting with self control but the premise of congested living being the only reason does not add up.

Spending a bunch of time in rural Iowa I think I have a decent understanding...while the space may be large, many feel trapped in a endless loop. Just because you see a huge expanse it doesn't mean there are endless possibilities. Sometimes the cage we live in is one we build oursleves...

[Tobra]

I would say the author does not have a strong understanding of what addiction is. That is not what he was testing.

[rsNINESOOPER]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

Spending a bunch of time in rural Iowa I think I have a decent understanding...while the space may be large, many feel trapped in a endless loop. Just because you see a huge expanse it doesn't mean there are endless possibilities. Sometimes the cage we live in is one we build oursleves...

True indeed. I guess "the grass is always greener" syndrome exists anywhere, even in the most beautiful places one travels to to get away from feeling trapped where they call home. Maybe we were meant to be more nomadic and less stationary in our lives. I have always felt a pull away from anywhere I have ever lived and count my happiest days as those where I owned practically nothing and would leave town whenever possible to go camping, exploring other cities, states, countries. Unfortunately our society is structured on being tethered to a single place most of the time unless wealth, or profession allow a more nomadic life. I sometimes wish I had the life of a Trustafarian friend of mine who just floats around the world and then when in town and drunk complains of not having a concrete life. The stories of abroad can seduce the mind though and make one ignore his lust for a more stationary life. Weird. Happiness is a state of mind I suppose but it never hurts to be less encumbered by the stress of the daily rat race. Most of us are in search of something that seems to be just out of reach and some of us have made peace with the "journey" itself.

My journey has indicated that some people are highly susceptible to addiction. I have 3 friends who were not able to get past addiction and went to ruin, 2 of them being college grads and hard working people. Still others who pretend to be in control. I count myself as very lucky I never took the hook from anything irregardless of exposure.

Hopefully science will find a cure for drug addiction which claims more lives than many people think. Not to mention the uncountable lives it ruins of those addicted and those who get dragged into the misery trying to be a friend, parent, brother, or sister, etc. to that person.

I suppose we are all addicted to something, money, power, things, feelings,..cars, women, the search for happiness, etc.

[rsNINESOOPER]

definitely an interesting experiment that cant be ignored but rat brains compared to human brains and the differences in the depth of self/social awareness between the two is light years apart. In other words just that difference alone would make it hard to draw conclusions let alone every ones subtle differences in body chemistry playing a role as well.

I remember reading about a similar experiment regarding aggression where rats were allowed lots of free space and then the free space was taken away. Thus trying to simulate congested urban areas and its affect on anger and violence etc.

Rats seem scientifically useful for physical experiments but using them for psychological comparison seems unreliable.

Then again I don't shrink or patch people for a living but do and have come across a number of specimens of human vermin. If only they could swap places with the innocent rats