What happened to honoring your word?
 

So here's my rant, comment if you want. I have in the last 30 days had two deals related to my business where I negotiated a price and terms for purchasing a piece of equipment. When a seller says "it's yours" I take them at their word. When I sell something, I give people my word and hold the piece for them because that's how I want to be treated. No down payment is necessary. One person sent me a text telling me they decided to sell to someone else. The other person I guess at least had the courage to call me and tell me they were selling the piece out from under me. The guy who called said "Obama lied to me about being able to keep my insurance" To which I replied "so someone lying to you gives you the right to lie to someone else? The truly ironic thing about this deal is, the guy complained to me about the city he lives in giving a contract to another company for less than 2000 dollars difference. He felt shorted by the city and couldn't understand why I felt shorted by him when he backed out on his word.
I've now had two dealings here on PP where buyers named their price and I agreed to sell. Both buyers backed out because someone offered them a better deal than they themselves had negotiated with me.

People just don't understand that it's not about the money. It's about the deterioration of our society where people can no longer be trusted to do what they said they would do. I feel like the last of a dying breed.

I'm too young to be old fashioned but I remember when giving someone your word was the best thing you could do. Are those days completely gone? When did the almighty dollar become greater than your honor?

unfortunately, those days are long gone.

don't let that discourage you. There are many god honest people out there. Some are not old. I am to young to be old fashion too, or old school for us young dogs, but working my way to be a old fart. I KNOW there are still out there. Good luck.

These days are gone.
And we can't
Keep holding on.

-or-

It's nothing personal, it's just business.

-or-

Jerry Maguire: tell me you didn't sign. I'm still sort of moved by your "My word is stronger than oak" thing.

-or-

While no goods or services have been exchanged, the agreement can be cancelled at any time.

I can't help but be discouraged. It becomes so frustrating when people back out on something without a single thought. I've had this happen at least 3 or more times each of the last few years. It's getting to a point where I expect it to happen. It wears on me. I often find myself asking at what point do I throw in the towel and just start looking out for me and what's best for me. The dollar can't buy back my self respect once I've sold it to the highest bidder.

I have to wonder if my real problem isn't that I'm too honest. I sell used construction equipment for a living. I'm self employed. When someone asks me what I'm going to do with the equipment, I can't lie. I tell them I buy and sell. That ends up killing a lot of deals because the person selling now knows the machine is worth more than they are asking but again, I'm not going to lie to make a dollar.

As for those days being long gone. They will be missed.

It's nearly always about money or "me". That's not new. Experience makes it more easily recognized and less well received.

for some perhaps..
certainly not you...
and quite a few other's we know here..

Vinny..you will always put on the gear and go..
regardless of the idiot inside...

Rika

Wildthing,
I have to hold on. I can't just let people off the hook. That's how this problem has grown to the point where we are today. People have given others a pass for not being honest or for not honoring their word but I won't. I can't.

Sorry for your frustration.

We seem to be in an age where money is considered to be not only the yardstick, but the Most Important Thing.
So: many consider money to be of greater importance than integrity, or quality.
If you have a rational discussion with these folks, they will tell you that they want others to see them as honest, but their actions speak otherwise.

I think we are seeing the value of a personal connection rise in some circles. That's what the "old boy's network" was about. You did business with persons you could trust. It hasn't gone away, but it is harder to find.

That is one benefit to living in a small community. You know the person with whom you are dealing and you guage your risk accordingly. I suppose it could be considered one of the foundations of the "buy local" movement.

Best
Les

Honor is not old fashioned and never goes out of style. It is just not as common as it used to be.

Once you become all about the money you're lost. I know in business that for every one I lose I'll gain another but I'm not willing to sell my dignity or self respect at any price to anyone.

This. Conduct yourself with integrity, you can only control your own actions. You will stand out because integrity is no longer the norm. Use it to your advantage, there's a lot of power in doing what you say.

This. I sold my 911 last year to a member on this board. Did by "electronic handshake." After we agreed on price I got higher offers. Didn't even consider them. A deal is a deal. What price do you put on your word?

As to the OP, obviously those two sellers' word is worthless.

How true, just no where near as common. I grew up with it and will stick to my guns until I'm in the ground and then I expect my family to do the same.

I'm sure you've pointed out you are taking a chance the equipment will be worth more. That is how you make your living, by finding a buyer.
In the meantime, you are reducing their overhead and putting money in their pockets. There is value in that too.
Some understand this, others will hold on to a piece of gear and dump it years later for a fraction.
But you've probably seen that many times.
Best
Les

I still give and keep my word...even if I get screwed over. I must be true to myself or I am lost.

this just happened to me last week. Called a guy and agreed to purchase and he sent me his paypay acount info and then 2 min later said he had a friend local that wanted them and the deal was off.. So I said how about $20.00 more and you know what he said Ok he will send them to me. WTF no thank you sell them to your friend.

Just out of curiosity...do you at least "fix it up" before reselling, or just buy low, sell high?

Put me on that list if ya don't mind....my "word" has always meant more to me than $. Well, it has so far for the $ amounts that "I've" been tempted with :D

I do agree...PLENTY of honest folks still around but I suspect it is a minority these days.

I wish I could sell high :) I try to buy low hour equipment that needs little to no work. I service the machine and inspect pins and bushings and replace as needed. I wash them then park them on concrete in a shop to verify there are no leaks. I test the hydraulic system for leaks by placing the boom in the air and checking to see if there is much or any leak down on the cylinders. I have a very good reputation for selling very good used equipment. I'm not saying I can't miss things but I take a great deal of pride in doing what I do and I describe my equipment honestly. If you ask some of my customers they'd probably tell you more than honestly. I floored a customer recently when I realized I sold and shipped them a machine and forgot to replace the windshield washer pump. I put a new one in the mail and apologized for the mistake. They didn't even know the pump didn't work.

To say that those days are gone, that is only true because we let them be. People need to be held to their word. Like they also say,"A man is only as good as his word".

This thread may be the most important one in this forum.

I don't believe you can "hold" a person to his word. You hold yourself to yours. Why? When you are a young man, it's because that's the way you were taught. As you become an adult, it's because that's the way you see yourself. In other words, you've internalized the values that you were taught. You realize that you'd rather be honorable than not.

Sure, you encounter others who are not honrable people and do not keep their word. But that does not change the way you see yourself. Instead, it reinforces the need to be true to your own word. In other words, being burned should illustrate to you why you need honor. When that happens, I stop dealing with people who lie. I try to stay around people who are truthful, which is also why you need loyalty as well.

The problem is, you can't force someone to keep their word. A verbal contract is just that, verbal. I've always tried to do business with a handshake and my word and it has worked for me for the most part. It just gets frustrating when I find an increasing amount of people can't be trusted to keep their word. I've kept my word even when I know it would cost me money to do so.

I have told people that my honesty and integrity are not for sale at any Price !!
I have and still will do a deal on a handshake. Those that have backed out on a deal I tell
them I see that you not an honorable person.

As mentioned already, some of us still believe heavily in this fundamentally ethical practice. The most we can do is work to instill it in our kids, so it never does completely die.

In my business, I sell about 90% of my equipment out of state. A small percentage of that goes out of country. I've sold machines in Australia, Czech Republic and Mexico. It's not easy but I feel very fortunate that I have customers who will gladly provide a reference if called and they welcome me to give their name if needed.

I've had people send me 70K not knowing me from Adam. I value their trust and I keep in constant contact with them until their machine arrives. I probably rare in that I make calls occasionally to see how the equipment is performing for them. It funny how surprised people are when I call them 30 days after the sale to check up.

My 2 cents:

There have always been unsavory types in society and there always will be.

Doesn't mean it changes who YOU are.

Stick to your value system. The moral compass that always points North. That little voice in your head that tells you right from wrong.

Ultimately we are all a product of our parents' upbringing....how you portray yourself is a direct reflection on your parents.

Now the second part of this is how to minimize further damage from others who go back on their word. Obviously you have to work from signed agreements with deposits and clauses and such. Or you can continue to do business as usual and realize some deals will fall through.

There are plenty of folks left who stand by their word.

Don't let it drag you down, man.

Yep - all true. There are those who honor a handshake and a verbal agreement but it is getting rare.

What happened to honoring your word?
 

Money talks, bull**** walks.

I expect this and if I want something I expect to pay for it right then and there. Until a payment is made, I don't expect anything from a seller.

It's unfortunate but "lowered expectations" is necessary in this day and age.

I won't do "handshake" deals as a seller either, or tell someone "I'll hold it for you". I tell them honestly whether there have been any other inquiries or not and that if they want it, come get it with cash in hand (or acceptable method of payment). If someone offers a partial payment I tell them that's up to them but I won't hold something based on that - if someone else shows up the next day with full payment I'm taking that and I'll notify and refund them immediately 100%. I think I'm not doing anything wrong by that and I've only had one person get pissy with me about it (sold some bike parts - they left in a huff because I wouldn't wait until he "got paid next" :rolleyes: and I got full price later anyway from a different buyer) - it's full disclosure. If someone doesn't like the terms they're welcome to pass and move on. I'm never that desperate to sell stuff that I'll risk reputation or conflict.

That's for stuff - for professional services I'm very strict - an hour to hour-and-a-half free consultation and that's it. After that I write a proposal and wait for a reply. I need an agreement in place. It's actually illegal to render services in some jurisdictions (like CA) without as contract or similar instrument in place. And it's just good business - no headaches and it limits the tire-kickers' damage - by setting the "put up or shut up" point early in it avoids BS-ers from wasting my time.

No, you can't actually hold a person to their word. But as a businessman, you don't have to do business with them either. Like you said its all about trust. I have to work with Vendors all the time. I won't do business with anyone I don't trust.

Try running a pawn shop for a while and see what percentage of people honor their word (but of course enough do to keep me in business).
I don't make many signature loans anymore.
Jim

I define integrity as doing what you say you will do. So if you are honest and upfront, I see no issues with your approach.

I have personally held cars for serious buyers on a handshake. I've held cars for weeks with a meaningful commitment like a deposit or plane ticket purchase to come get it. I treat others like I would like to be treated, even if I'm not always treated that way. It's worth it though when I get a thank you from buyers for being honest, forthcoming, and accommodating.

I've had postings on craigslist where people texted me to meet up and then didn't show. But such is life. I don't let them bring me down.

I do keep my word when I say I will buy something. But like an earlier poster said, you can't expect everyone to be like you.

And I'm assuming when it's serious business or larger sums there's a written or online agreement.

A Handshake, to me, is a bond.
Only the other person can break it.
I have never broken that bond, and I am comfortable with that, and myself.
I have never met Baz, One Whipped or some others but I would not hesitate to do the "handshake" deal with them, either in person or over the phone.
Honor and loyalty are more important to me than money.
My opinion, yours may vary.

Matt

Sad about the way it is today. In my world, I say what I mean. I do what I say. And if there is any problem, I'll take care of it. I know it's old school, but if I can teach just one other person to do the same, well that would be great.

Thanks Matt...feel the same way, mate! Probably wouldn't surprise you to know I have a 100% eBay rating with over 1K transactions, so hey no worries, right? :)

In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to do a deal with most of you guys (and girls) here without anything in writing or a deposit.

F.W.I.W. I don't require signatures for my projects and have rarely been burned. I do type up a proposal with exact specs and pricing so there's no misunderstandings. Plus I usually ask for a deposit for anything over $1K. Otherwise I'm proud to say we successfully operate on trust and a handshake. It's not that hard if you do what you say you're going to.

I know the feeling. I provided some BMW parts to someone on this site with the promise that he would pay me when he got home from his trip. He is a young person and I felt sorry for him.

Have never heard a word from him again. Emails went unanswered. Karma is a mean B$tch and I am sure it will bite him good.

Dave

YOu are running a great business buddy. I started working for myself since my second year of college and have been burned a total of four times. :mad: One was a very dear friend's sister that had no freaking backbone another time was the PR person for Tom Cruise and many other big name mucky mucks. She was a total looser who lives in a 3 million dollar home that over looks the Getty, but decides to burn us for 7 grand. A couple of people here know me and have continue to use our service from far corners of the country with a hand shake and paper work keeps the misunderstanding from happening like you said. As funny as it might sound, they keep shoving money my way (I am very thankful for that :)) before the due date. Damn Porsche owners have too much money.:D I know of a couple of young guys in their late twenties that are also outstanding and I wouldn't think twice about doing business with them. Good people are still around, and will continue to do well because of their honest ethics. They are out there.

Thanks for your comments!

Over all it's good communication that makes it happen. I use email as much as possible to keep everyone posted and updated. It's so easy to do it why not?

7 grand...wow that sucks!

Not sure what your experience has been with the wealthy....but they usually make the worst customers! Big shots who are terrible at paying. It's taken a while but now I add a little extra contingency for the ones who activate my radar....fool me once shame on you....fool me twice....

I have always been good on my word, but I understand some others won't be. If I have a choice down the line, I won't do any transactions with them ever again. Some years ago I bought a windshield from a guy who was well known and apparently sold a lot over the internet. The windshield arrived shattered and he said he'd send a replacement. Never heard from him again. I got pretty mad about it & contacted the state agency where he lived that said they investigated/mediated things like that. After talking to a person in that agency, I learned they didn't have any authority other than contacting the other party. If the other party never responded, they dropped it. So I asked if they had a recommendation for an attorney local to where the guy lived and got a recommendation. I called the attorney and explained what had happened. He agreed to go after the refund of the windshield and have his paralegal staff handle it for a minimum amount of fee. Long story short, I got my payment back with shipping expenses. It cost me $100 and was well worth it.