College Time!

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by pavulon

Thankfully, I cannot offer first-hand evidence. I graduated a few times but long ago and my kids are young. However, I did see the issue show through with people returning to school for degrees in fields that offered a reasonable future. I've worked with a few folks that experienced similar situations...most are now nurses some having graduated from accelerated programs catering to this very issue.

I suspect a day spent at Starbucks or Barnes & Noble or many, many bars would turn up a fair number of people with nebulous degrees not at all related to coffee, books or booze figuring out where it all went wrong.

Lastly, I recall listening to the radio (NPR) laying out stories of students being denied financial aid to attend programs that were pumping out students with no employment (or loan repayment) prospects.

so ... you don't have any evidence of this.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by LSA

As someone who recently graduated I wouldn't have paid 50k+ for a degree from some fancy private school. Eff that ****. You pay some exorbitant amount per semester to have TA's and grad students lecture auditoriums of 100+ kids.

Many "fancy private schools" in fact do NOT have grad students teaching classes and also have small lecture and lab courses. At many elite liberal arts colleges, that is what you're paying for. And in some cases, it is worth the money. Or at least used to be...

If people are unemployed with a "useless" degree, blame the person, not the degree. College is what you make of it, not what you are magically given by the ivory tower. Each person has to determine the value proposition for a degree, and I admit that it is getting questionable in some (many?) cases.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

so ... you don't have any evidence of this.

I believe it's called common sense. What college professor is going to promote his program by touting limited career opportunity and subpar pay?

"Come major in General Business, you'll be one of thirty assistant managers at Target when you graduate!"

College isn't the fast track to the good life that it was 50 years ago. If you don't manage in something specialized and marketable, a BS/BA is the new high school diploma. But you won't get this reality talking with a high school guidance counselor or on your college visit. One of my little sister in laws was convinced by her high school counselor that if she didn't go to college she would be nothing in life. I explained that she could do a nursing program at a technical school and make better money than most college grads, with minimal debt. That made her feel much better.

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

so ... you don't have any evidence of this.

WTF exactly would satisfy you? A notarized confession from 10-20 professors? Perhaps, consider that you may not have all the answers. Jeezus.

[Andy911sc]

I spent close to 80k for the small private college I went to (Student body of 1500). Westminster College in Pennsylvania. Came out with a BS in Chemistry. While I enjoyed my tenure at Westminster, I would probably do it differently today. Yes, I had a lot of hands on and personal attention from professors at a college that small. I had some classes of only 5-10 students and some of my professors numbers in my cell. This was over the years 2003-2008, I took a year off in there to work and bank some money. I majored in something that would get me into the industrial/manufacturing job market and have been successful, but here is the difference I would have made.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have spent 2 years at a community college to get all the electives and lower level major courses out of the way. That way I could have lived at home and worked more to pay for the lower cost community college. After that, I would have transferred into a college that I wanted my BS to be from. The college I went to was 27k/year at the time and I had about 8k in scholarships for tuition/room/board. Today my same college is 42k, only 8 years later. This pricing is ridiculous in my opinion and I would have probably done something completely different if I face those prices today.

If you are paying for your daughters education, kudos because that will help her greatly once graduated. If not and she is planning on paying this after she achieves her degree, with deferred interest she is looking at a minimum of 2k/month payment on those loans. In today's job market, expect her to struggle with those payments.

I had a friend major in Latin at my college. She is now working in a bakery and trying is struggling to pay close to 1k/month in student loan payments. Make sure you evaluate the practicality of your major to today's and in 5 years job demand.

Also, you can only right off a total of $2500 on your taxes in student loan interest per year. If you pay any more than that, then you are just throwing money away.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Andy911sc

I had a friend major in Latin at my college. She is now working in a bakery and trying is struggling to pay close to 1k/month in student loan payments. Make sure you evaluate the practicality of your major to today's and in 5 years job demand.

At least some of the job skills necessary 10 years from now don't currently exist. Graduates need to learn how to learn, and a good liberal arts degree teaches just that. Many students however don't really understand that, and instead think that college will "get them a job." imho that isn't what college does - that's what a trade school does. And that isn't to demean trade school, as I actually think they are perhaps the most important part of the educational chain in this century if they adapt.

Nothing wrong with working in a bakery. Having unrealistic expectations of what a degree will get you, and the resulting value proposition for college - well, something can be wrong with that. I'm encouraging my son to do what he loves and also have a backup plan. But I'm also not telling him, "college at all costs." Frankly he will do just fine without it as there are a lot of paths these days. Programming skills are the "trades" of the 21st century. You don't need to go to college to learn how to code. You do if you want to design and do some of the other aspects.

A degree is useful for some, useless for others. The field these days isn't that critical, as you aren't learning your "job skills" in the classroom. It is how you think and how you present yourself. We hire a variety of tech and creative types. Some years back there was a pretty standard background. These days, not so much.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by nostatic

At least some of the job skills necessary 10 years from now don't currently exist. Graduates need to learn how to learn, and a good liberal arts degree teaches just that. Many students however don't really understand that, and instead think that college will "get them a job." imho that isn't what college does - that's what a trade school does. And that isn't to demean trade school, as I actually think they are perhaps the most important part of the educational chain in this century if they adapt.

Nothing wrong with working in a bakery. Having unrealistic expectations of what a degree will get you, and the resulting value proposition for college - well, something can be wrong with that. I'm encouraging my son to do what he loves and also have a backup plan. But I'm also not telling him, "college at all costs." Frankly he will do just fine without it as there are a lot of paths these days. Programming skills are the "trades" of the 21st century. You don't need to go to college to learn how to code. You do if you want to design and do some of the other aspects.

A degree is useful for some, useless for others. The field these days isn't that critical, as you aren't learning your "job skills" in the classroom. It is how you think and how you present yourself. We hire a variety of tech and creative types. Some years back there was a pretty standard background. These days, not so much.

College opens doors to a career. Different degrees open different doors, you won't be considered for many accounting jobs with the aforementioned major in Latin. The big issue I see for many new grads is that they didn't consider the reality of what their degree will actually do for them. As you mentioned the value proposition is key, and many don't seem to do that math.

I wish there was more emphasis put on trade schools, particularly in high school. It seems that many look down on trade schools as being for people not smart enough to go to college, which is very unfortunate. I know many people in the trades who make wages that would put degree holding white collar workers to shame.

[Andy911sc]

Many are steered wrong. I have to agree, college isn't suppose to teach you to get a job, it is to open your mind and teach you to learn. I know, I have taken that away from my college experience. I tell my friends that I could do anything I put my mind to and that I am not just limited to my Chemistry Degree because my liberal arts program has given me the tools to excel.

I also wasn't putting down being a baker, just don't need a Latin degree to do it was the point I was trying to make.

I feel a lot of these future students are steered wrong by professors and advisers who are trying to get their student quota up to get more funding for their department. I had a waitress that was in the graphic design and art program. She later told me that her adviser directed her towards secondary ed. I told her that public schools have been cutting back on funding and teachers are being laid off. I told her that she is being advised wrong and there is a huge market for graphic designers in advertising, website design, labeling... ect. Went back a few weeks later and ended up having the same waitress. She informed me that her adviser said I was wrong. I told her we pay an outside graphic designer $120/hr for new labeling when we have it done.

[cashflyer]

This should be every kid's college guide: Top 20.

Learn to network and make social connections, learn advertising and promotional skills, learn diplomacy, perhaps learn the legal system. Classes... yeah, go and make good grades. That piece of paper opens some doors, but what you learn in class is just the fundamental stepping stones of your field. You do the real learning once you are out of college. And you better have those social/schmoozing/BSing skills honed to a razor edge to really make a difference.

Oh yeah... intern in your field during your school years if possible. That will also give you a nose ahead when it comes time to spread your wings and attack.

disclaimer: my opinion varies

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

College opens doors to a career. Different degrees open different doors, you won't be considered for many accounting jobs with the aforementioned major in Latin.

True, but I could argue that the Latin major actually might have the edge for a much broader set of jobs than the accounting major.

In the end it comes down to the individual. There are straightforward paths, and others that are much less so. Plenty of people who drifted through college then got out and couldn't find a job that they either liked or thought paid enough. Is that the fault of the college?

College prices are high for a number of reasons. Part of it is that people are willing to pay for it, but sadly some (or many) do so out of habit rather than cost/benefit analysis. Lots of people love to blame the colleges and "stupid degrees" but the reality is that those degrees have value. Whether or not the individual can use or leverage that value effectively, or has suitable expectations for compensation in the real world is a totally different story.

[RWebb]

At a major research university (and UO just makes the cut) laboratory courses are usually taught by TA's (grad. students) under the supervision of a professor. This cuts costs and makes the grad. students happy (they get a stipend, some power and recognition). It makes the professors VERY happy as their legacy is based on their own research and what their own grad. students do, NOT on what their undergraduates do. The entire system for the professors is geared towards research, not towards quality undergraduate education. The latter is best achieved at a top 4 year liberal arts college for a liberal arts major, but not so much for a science major.

A small honors college gives a student many of the advantages of a top liberal arts 4 year college but without the tuition cost. For a science major, they still get the benefit of being in a research environment and (at least as a Jr or Sr) learning from the top scientists in their field. That won't apply much for a liberal arts major.

A college education is NOT training. It is a generalized education - to teach people to think. A 2 year degree is a completely different animal and is training based. But most students should pay some attention to what they will do after graduation and structure their courses outside their major (or in their major) to that end. A student with a lot of financial resources has greater luxury of choice. It is good for parents to think about that after your daughter consumes a cool 1/4 million at an elite liberal arts school with a major in the Cultural Anthropology of fabric arts in Kuwhatistan and then joins the PeaceCorps, and follows that up by waitressing while living in your basement, then moves out and graduates to working at a freakin' Goat Ranch in California (which BTW does not even make goat cheese so you don't even get goat cheese).

Gettin' the idea here?

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by RWebb

The entire system for the professors is geared towards research, not towards quality undergraduate education. The latter is best achieved at a top 4 year liberal arts college for a liberal arts major, but not so much for a science major.

Almost half of my incoming phd class at Caltech was from small liberal arts colleges (Grinnell, Swarthmore, Carleton, etc). Frankly a science student is typically better served at a good small college than a research university. The only exception is for students who are very forward and able to push their way into a research lab. Learning the essence of science as an undergrad does not require tier 1 lab infrastructure.

It comes down to the individual, less so the program.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by nostatic

True, but I could argue that the Latin major actually might have the edge for a much broader set of jobs than the accounting major.

In the end it comes down to the individual. There are straightforward paths, and others that are much less so. Plenty of people who drifted through college then got out and couldn't find a job that they either liked or thought paid enough. Is that the fault of the college?

College prices are high for a number of reasons. Part of it is that people are willing to pay for it, but sadly some (or many) do so out of habit rather than cost/benefit analysis. Lots of people love to blame the colleges and "stupid degrees" but the reality is that those degrees have value. Whether or not the individual can use or leverage that value effectively, or has suitable expectations for compensation in the real world is a totally different story.

Perhaps. But now we're into defining quality and quantity of said jobs. An accounting major graduates into a diverse field that is in demand. Entry level accounting grads start in the $45-50k range, can work nearly anywhere in the USA, and have a number of different paths internal to the field (tax, corporate, audit, etc). Most employers will pay for a new graduate to work towards their master's degree and cover the expense of a CPA exam, at which point their income and career options increase further.

There is no barrier to the Latin major finding similar career and financial success. But they will have far fewer options, and likely have to work harder, than their accounting counterpart. Worth the effort if you love the Latin language, not so much if you chose the major because it gave you more free time to get laid.

[VincentVega]

Interesting thread.

I really like the idea of requiring a kid to take at least a few basic business classes. For some they might be an easy part of their day and for others they can provide some very useful info they will use the rest of their lives. I know it's a requirement for me to invest in the kids education that they minor or at least take several finance, accounting, mgmt ... classes.

Nothing wrong with the lib arts but you gotta make sure you learn the practical stuff sometime.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by pavulon

WTF exactly would satisfy you? A notarized confession from 10-20 professors? Perhaps, consider that you may not have all the answers. Jeezus.

you claimed massive amounts of people were being lied to .... i just never experienced this, and still don't really see evidence for this. i dont think too many folks are being told that a liberal education degree or art, or whatever, is going to translate into some big money job, or even a guaranteed job ... im just not seeing any evidence of that.

and no one has presented evidence of that either.

[jcommin]

I did this last year for my youngest son. His high school had a very good college placement department. They helped him select schools that fit his GPA and his interests. His mother and I narrowed this list to small liberal art schools in the Midwest. We also developed a long range plan if his interest remained unchanged. The HS helped my son with interviews, letter writing and set up appointments for visitations. Their involvement reduced the stress if we had done it ourselves. From the narrowed list, my son picked a school, Beloit College, he now attends. He did get a scholarship, a reduction in tuition. He funded $10K of the tuition, skin in the game. When he graduates, we will pay the $10K. If he decides to opt out, the loan is his. He graduated HS in December (early) and went to a local community college as most schools won't take incoming freshman in the spring term. The community college was a good experience as he got a taste of the differences between college and HS. He was prepared for the college experience when he went to Beloit for the fall semester.

So far, he is committed to staying there 2 years. His focus has changed too.

Another lesson learned: most, if not all freshman major in "I don't know or I changed my mind".

Good luck!

[jyl]

Originally Posted by RWebb

A small honors college gives a student many of the advantages of a top liberal arts 4 year college but without the tuition cost. For a science major, they still get the benefit of being in a research environment and (at least as a Jr or Sr) learning from the top scientists in their field. That won't apply much for a liberal arts major.

I'm hoping Clark Honors College at UO fits that profile . . . 700 kids in the program, within a 30K kid campus.

Tuition $9K/yr, housing incl meal $12K to $17K depending on kids/room, amenities. $24K/yr is looking pretty good to me after reviewing $55-60K/yr private schools.

[RWebb]

I think it does, John. I have never been a professor at UO so my opinion is just based on talking to professors there.

The Honors College in a major research university is like buying a Honda instead of a Mercedes. A really good deal, in other words.

That would be especially true where the student is a liberal arts major, and not a science major.

If she gets a full ride to Brown or Reed that would be a different matter.

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by jyl

One piece of advice I got, and that I am seeing work for some kids, is: if a kid has very good numbers (grades/SATs), find the best schools ("best" for the kid, not "best" in status/ranking terms) for which the kid will be in the top 10% of accepted students and that are well endowed (probably private). The lower 50% of accepted students pay full list, and subsidize the top 10% that the school really needs to burnish their incoming class statistics. Schools will give full rides or close to that 10%.

My advice to my daughter has been:
1. Look for a school with a wide variety of kids, where you will have a good time and friends. If you don't tend to like the uber-driven, hyper-competitive, >4.0 GPA super-students in high school, don't look for colleges that are packed with those kids. On the other hand, if you like hard-working, focused, smart kids who like learning and studying, don't end up at a party/ski school.
2. Look for a school with strong undergraduate classes/teaching in the specific departments you are interested in. Sounds obvious but many kids/parents are more focused on overall school metrics/ranking or over-impressed with a school's research reputation. I went to UC Berkeley and UCLA, the dozens of Nobel winners there didn't make a whit of difference to me, but the 300 person classes taught in huge lecture halls by graduate students with English as a second language did.
3. Look for a school where you can achieve a high GPA while still having a life. Burning yourself out to get a 3.0 will be no fun and won't get you into top graduate schools, if that is where your direction lies.
4. Look for a school in a town/city that is at least somewhat interesting. Doesn't have to be Manhattan but an isolated campus in Nowhere isn't my recommendation either (think Sarah Lawrence).
5. Look for a school that you (we) can afford comfortably, from which you'll graduate with zero or minimal student debt. Heavy debt is crushing, it eliminates many of your choices and options, and makes you a wage slave in what should be your most free, most experimental stage of life.

^^ Exactly!

I went through this process 10 yrs ago. My kids had good HS grades, were pretty focused, and both were accepted at UCSD. They were gifted athletes and were wooed by Princeton, Brown and Bucknell coaching staff but preferred sun and surf to snow and ivy. They had a great experience in both school and social activities and now both have good jobs making more $$ than me. The school needs to be a good fit and not just a fancy title if they want to get the most from it. Expected return on investment should also be an important part of the decision process.

The UCSD Bio program is hyper-competitive and designed around pre-med and scientific research. No place for an easy-going college kid. One of my girls moved from being a bio major to communications and it was a perfect fit.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by RWebb

If she gets a full ride to Brown or Reed that would be a different matter.

Not going to happen . . . she is a strong applicant but not that strong, and we don't qualify for any need-based. Reed is too close to home anyway, she wasn't interested, didn't apply.