College Time!

[jyl]

My daughter is graduatnig from high school this fall, so for the past year we have been immersed in the whole college application and selection thing.

Matters certainly are different than when I went to college, far too long ago.

My observations:

1. The college industry has done a great job of whipping kids and parents into a frenzy of desperation and status-driven anxiety. Many think that what college their BA/BS comes from is actually going to determine their life.

2. There are a lot of kids out there with very high numbers and even higher expectations piled on them. I know kids with 4.0 GPAs (unadjusted) and excellent SATs, extracurriculars who are getting rejections from their dream schools, and crestfallen about it.

3. College is, or can be, very tough on kids today. A friend who was a counselor at a small, good school told me that an alarmingly high percentage of the students she counseled had at least one serious mental health episode in school.

4. College is, or can be, very tough on families today. Spending $250,000 aftertax ($340,000 in pre-tax income) for four years of school is not uncommon. The income/asset hurdles for need-based financial aid are very high. Merit aid is more available than you might think.

5. Too many choices and analysis paralysis is a real pitfall. Even after applying some reasonable filters, a kid will have a hundred colleges to consider. Far more than anyone can actually research, visit, and assess.

6. The regular-timing acceptance notifications come all in a rush right about now. Lots of drama.

Anyone going through this too? Comments?

My daughter got into her three safety schools, one of which we'd actually be okay with (Fordham in Manhattan). She also got into the Clark Honors College at University of Oregon, which would be a great school for her (selective, only 700 kids, but with the campus, course selection and social life of a 30,000 student university), and is also accepted at UC Santa Cruz (she loves the campus, but the art program is not well-reviewed). Waitlisted at UCSD, to get in as an out of state applicant that one will be a stretch but we'd seriously consider it (apparently very good biology and art programs). Still waiting to hear from most of her schools.

As a diversion, she and I have been starting to think about her college computer system (something that didn't even exist when I went to school - back then we agonized over the kid's calculator). Thinking a 11" MacBook Air for the classroom, a Mac mini w/ dual monitors for the dorm room. A far cry from the TI-52 I took to college.

[berettafan]

I would submit to you that the vast majority of people who drop a qtr mil + on college would be far better off dropping that qtr mill on a house and getting a job with state highway.

end result is retired at 38 with a $50k/yr pension and no mortgage.

i'll bet half the middle managers in the US aren't THAT financially sound at 48, much less 38.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by berettafan

I would submit to you that the vast majority of people who drop a qtr mil + on college would be far better off dropping that qtr mill on a house and getting a job with state highway.

Or going to college and not spending $0.25MM . . .

[weseeeee]

My daughter graduated with an adjusted GPA of 4.7 and she completed 1.5 years of college during High School. She got a rejection letter from U of F that stated although you are qualified we get 10 apps for every spot we have available, blah blah blah. She now attends UCF in Orlando and loves it. Sometimes things work out for the best...

[URY914]

My daughter starts college in the summer. She applied to one state school and was accepted. She has her major picked and wants to get on with it.

[cockerpunk]

why would anyone in there right mind think that 250k reasonable for college?

maybe, maybe half that, closer to a quarter of that is reasonable.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I went to a state school, graduated almost 30 years ago and started in public accounting. We all made the same money to start. I bought my first house 6 months after graduating and my mortgage was less than many classmates school loans. Promotions and opportunities after starting had 0 to do with where our degrees came from. Many with very expensive private school degrees washed out in the first year because they didn't have the grit it took to work their butts off, didn't have the social skills to relate to people or simply didn't have common sense.

My kids are both at state schools and doing great. My daughter is a grad student in one of the top 5 social work programs in the country, son will graduate in a few weeks and has been top of his Army ROTC brigade through school. He heads to infantry BOLC in November. They have been financially responsible and spent way less than what I saved for their schooling by paying their own way through scholarships and/or working all through school. Whatever is left is theirs (minus my IRS penalties) when they are done with school.

IMHO spending a ton of dough on a 4 year degree in most cases is a waste.

[71scgc]

VA paid for me. I took one student loan for $5000.
A bit more than say $40,000 for five years. In the early '90s. At a land grant school.
The prices today are stupid and unjustifiable. I had profs that would have been rejected by a community college. Bet they're still there.

Carter

[nostatic]

My son is a junior in HS. He is getting so-so grades. Last semester (the first one that really counts) was 3.83 - his best ever. This semester I figure will slide a bit as he just isn't that interested at this point. I'm fine with it - he can go to community college and figure out his plan or he can get a band together and go on the road living out of a van for a year. That is actually what I think he should do. His mom thinks he should go to med school. Yuck. Totally not for him. Best case scenario is he gets into USC and I'm still employed there so he gets free tuition. Would be a perfect fit in the interactive media program at cinema. Worst case is he goes to CC for two years, either gets fired up or doesn't, then transfers or gets a job at a game studio. He'll figure it out.

[Arizona_928]

It all depends on what you want to do, and if you want to stay in state. Tip: Take the harder classes at community college. Ie. calc 1,2,3 & differential. You will get more bang for your buck, and better support/interaction from the prof's.
Also, high school is a popularity contest. If the teachers like you, you'll get the A's.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by jhynesrockmtn

I went to a state school, graduated almost 30 years ago and started in public accounting. We all made the same money to start. I bought my first house 6 months after graduating and my mortgage was less than many classmates school loans. Promotions and opportunities after starting had 0 to do with where our degrees came from. Many with very expensive private school degrees washed out in the first year because they didn't have the grit it took to work their butts off, didn't have the social skills to relate to people or simply didn't have common sense.

My kids are both at state schools and doing great. My daughter is a grad student in one of the top 5 social work programs in the country, son will graduate in a few weeks and has been top of his Army ROTC brigade through school. He heads to infantry BOLC in November. They have been financially responsible and spent way less than what I saved for their schooling by paying their own way through scholarships and/or working all through school. Whatever is left is theirs (minus my IRS penalties) when they are done with school.

IMHO spending a ton of dough on a 4 year degree in most cases is a waste.

Read this, then read it again. You know what will be the single biggest benefit to your kid getting a good job someday? Experience in her field in the form of an internship or part-time job. With a mediocre GPA from Wichita State University I was worth more than an MIT grad because I had already been working for two years in my field. Very few career fields care where you graduate from, and even fewer will pay more for a "prestigious" degree. Further, after a few years of experience most employers won't care about your Alma-mater or GPA, only that you have a degree.

My kids will attend an in-state public university, unless they get a full scholarship elsewhere. They will take as many courses through a community college as possible that are applicable and transferable to their chosen field of study. And they will have a plan, none of this going to college to "find themselves". I found myself after dropping out of college and working in the real world for a few years, THAT is how you learn about life. I agree with Todd's post above, a non-motivated college student would be far better served playing in a band for a few years than taking BS gen-ed courses and living off of mommy and daddy.

[JR Indy]

My experience with my son was slightly different. He wasn't a great HS student, got into a little trouble, and drifted for a couple of years, but learned great life lessons. He then moved to CA with me, enrolled in a Community College, excelled for two years with straight A's and prepped to transfer to the UC system. He was accepted by all of his target schools, and in fact was given full scholarship offers from UCSD, UCI, and others. He is now happily attending UCI for Computer Science.

The community college system in CA is great; low cost, transfer plans for good students, smaller class sizes (in some cases).

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by JR Indy

My experience with my son was slightly different. He wasn't a great HS student, got into a little trouble, and drifted for a couple of years, but learned great life lessons. He then moved to CA with me, enrolled in a Community College, excelled for two years with straight A's and prepped to transfer to the UC system. He was accepted by all of his target schools, and in fact was given full scholarship offers from UCSD, UCI, and others. He is now happily attending UCI for Computer Science.

The community college system in CA is great; low cost, transfer plans for good students, smaller class sizes (in some cases).

This is why I'm not so uptight. I spent 4 years after high school drifting pretty heavily. Once I got it together, the world had not left me behind - it was still there.

Also a little known tidbit - many schools will turn down applicants that they want due to low scores. If said applicant goes to a CC for a semester, often times they can transfer in easily. The various rating systems track incoming freshmen GPA and SAT scores, not transfers.

John, if she's interested in art did she consider any art schools (such as CalArts)? Not for everyone, but ideal for some people.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by nostatic

My son is a junior in HS. He is getting so-so grades. Last semester (the first one that really counts) was 3.83 - his best ever. This semester I figure will slide a bit as he just isn't that interested at this point. I'm fine with it - he can go to community college and figure out his plan or he can get a band together and go on the road living out of a van for a year. That is actually what I think he should do. His mom thinks he should go to med school. Yuck. Totally not for him. Best case scenario is he gets into USC and I'm still employed there so he gets free tuition. Would be a perfect fit in the interactive media program at cinema. Worst case is he goes to CC for two years, either gets fired up or doesn't, then transfers or gets a job at a game studio. He'll figure it out.

I'm in the same boat. Zack is a Junior with grades like Calvin but wants a career in the Military. I don't think he is a good candidate for a 4 year college right after graduation and we may push him to a local community college to start. There is so much competition and pressure for getting into "the" school among students and parents that they are losing sight for the bigger picture.

Like others here I spent a few years after high school unfocused on anything other than cars and travel. I found my way back through the community college system and transferred to a State University for graduation. I have managed plenty of folks and can honestly say that nobody really cares where you got your degree from - only that you have one and that you do your job well.

[berettafan]

I would suggest (with great difficulty) that it takes a truly exceptional person to thrive after goofing off for 4 years.

[onewhippedpuppy]

John, one thought on the computer, having two might become a PITA. She may find herself running both at the same time because notes are on the laptop (from class), but she wants the bigger screens for typing a paper. Why not just a laptop with a dock or other means to connect to a the bigger monitors in the dorm room? Having all of the files in one place would be much more convenient, and any laptop will handle typical college tasks.

What does she plan to do with the art degree? I only ask because my sister in law has an English degree but failed to think through her career prospects. She's sadly found that because she neither wants to teach nor is qualified to do so, Walgreens is her next best option.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I agree with Todd's post above, a non-motivated college student would be far better served playing in a band for a few years than taking BS gen-ed courses and living off of mommy and daddy.

not only that, but they get brain washed from many of the Professors about unrealistic jobs and salaries. They lie through the skin of their teeth.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by look 171

not only that, but they get brain washed from many of the Professors about unrealistic jobs and salaries. They lie through the skin of their teeth.

evidence of this?

never seen this, though i went through engineering school, so it might be different in the liberal arts.

i thought most lib ed kids knew they weren't gonna make **** for money?

[JR Indy]

Originally Posted by nostatic

This is why I'm not so uptight. I spent 4 years after high school drifting pretty heavily. Once I got it together, the world had not left me behind - it was still there.

Also a little known tidbit - many schools will turn down applicants that they want due to low scores. If said applicant goes to a CC for a semester, often times they can transfer in easily. The various rating systems track incoming freshmen GPA and SAT scores, not transfers.

I agree. When we visited UCLA, the people we talked to indicated they are very interested in CC transfers that have proven themselves in that environment.

Todd, if your son ever wants advice from someone who went through the same choices recently let me know. My son plays guitar and can provide a unique perspective to non traditional students.

[jyl]

One piece of advice I got, and that I am seeing work for some kids, is: if a kid has very good numbers (grades/SATs), find the best schools ("best" for the kid, not "best" in status/ranking terms) for which the kid will be in the top 10% of accepted students and that are well endowed (probably private). The lower 50% of accepted students pay full list, and subsidize the top 10% that the school really needs to burnish their incoming class statistics. Schools will give full rides or close to that 10%.

My advice to my daughter has been:
1. Look for a school with a wide variety of kids, where you will have a good time and friends. If you don't tend to like the uber-driven, hyper-competitive, >4.0 GPA super-students in high school, don't look for colleges that are packed with those kids. On the other hand, if you like hard-working, focused, smart kids who like learning and studying, don't end up at a party/ski school.
2. Look for a school with strong undergraduate classes/teaching in the specific departments you are interested in. Sounds obvious but many kids/parents are more focused on overall school metrics/ranking or over-impressed with a school's research reputation. I went to UC Berkeley and UCLA, the dozens of Nobel winners there didn't make a whit of difference to me, but the 300 person classes taught in huge lecture halls by graduate students with English as a second language did.
3. Look for a school where you can achieve a high GPA while still having a life. Burning yourself out to get a 3.0 will be no fun and won't get you into top graduate schools, if that is where your direction lies.
4. Look for a school in a town/city that is at least somewhat interesting. Doesn't have to be Manhattan but an isolated campus in Nowhere isn't my recommendation either (think Sarah Lawrence).
5. Look for a school that you (we) can afford comfortably, from which you'll graduate with zero or minimal student debt. Heavy debt is crushing, it eliminates many of your choices and options, and makes you a wage slave in what should be your most free, most experimental stage of life.