College Time!

[rfloz]

Some people, and I am only citing Prof. Webb here because he helpfully bolded the concept, have a surprisingly narrow view of what a college degree can be used for:

Originally Posted by RWebb

It is good for parents to think about that after your daughter consumes a cool 1/4 million at an elite liberal arts school with a major in the Cultural Anthropology of fabric arts in Kuwhatistan and then joins the PeaceCorps, and follows that up by waitressing while living in your basement, then moves out and graduates to working at a freakin' Goat Ranch in California (which BTW does not even make goat cheese so you don't even get goat cheese).

For example, my son, an Anthropology major at Cal, went on the become director of marketing for all of Asia and then director of computer training for a major bank. He made several hundred thousand dollars per year for several years and is now taking a sabbatical in Denmark (wife is a Danish citizen). Since he saved more than half of what he was paid, he has the luxury of deciding at age 45, when, and if, he wishes to return to work. Making money in a capitalist country and spending it in a socialist one is quite efficient.

For another example, my undergrad major was also Anthropology. At the time, the only career path in sight was teaching. While I have taught and loved it, I did not want to be limited to that field. So, when offered a full tuition paid scholarship, I went to law school. That was more than forty years ago and I still practice. And, I have found my anthro background to help immensely in understanding the issues of our varied clientele. I have been a partner in a small immigration firm for more than ten years and we serve people from dozens of countries.

A final example, my daughter is in her second year of college and is an anthropology major (I sense a trend here) with a concentration in forensic linguistics. There are now many more jobs for anthro majors and this is just one of then. Did I mention she's thinking of taking Latin?

All three of us have in fact worked in minimum wage jobs while in college and none of us, so far, after. Oh, and all three of us hate goat cheese.


To digress, two classes everyone should take in college, if they haven't already mastered same, are typing and accounting. Both will swerve you well.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Many students however don't really understand that, and instead think that college will "get them a job." imho that isn't what college does - that's what a trade school does. And that isn't to demean trade school, as I actually think they are perhaps the most important part of the educational chain in this century if they adapt.

Admittedly I have not read this entire thread. I agree with Todd but also understand that if your child wants a job as an engineer it will be a non starter without a BS degree. That is the minimum requirement to even getting an interview - regardless of your past experience.

[nostatic]

I know that certain fields have certain requirements. The reason I got a phd in chemistry was I wanted to teach at the college level and you can't do that with a BA/BS. But I also know that "useless" degrees can be put to good use. If one knows they want to become an engineer when they are 18, then they should knock themselves out and get that engineering degree. Many students however, at least in my experience as both faculty (past) and someone who hires/fires (current), enter college to do what their parents want them to do.

To echo rfloz, this thread has a lot of narrow viewpoints on career paths. Some of the most miserable people I know are ones who went from HS to college to grad/professional school "knowing" what they wanted. Some of the happiest are ones that drifted or bounced around or course corrected along the way. No single path to happiness or enlightenment.

I not only was a student at a variety of institutions, but was on the other side of the office hours as faculty, and now am in a field that is arguably one of the largest growth areas (e.g. Facebook just bought Oculus for $2B today - Palmer Luckey, who formed Oculus, was a lab tech in our Institute). What we struggle finding are creative kids with some technical chops, some social skills, and some breadth in their education or experience. Oddly enough, some of the "useless degrees" can provide that if the kid engages the process and does things on their own. Again, not so much about the degree or the program but more about how the kid takes advantage of the opportunities.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by rfloz

To digress, two classes everyone should take in college, if they haven't already mastered same, are typing and accounting. Both will swerve you well.

Actually I think the two should be formal logic and some music performance or studio art class.

[Cajundaddy]

According to the "narrow view" all of my kids college degrees are useless degrees. At any rate, they seem to be enjoying themselves with no trouble getting good jobs in a rotten economy.

1. AA in photography- Volunteer Coordinator for a major national charity org. and raising 3 kids.
2. BA in Communications UCSD- Lead MRI tech at a SoCal hospital near the beach.
3. BA in History/Religious Studies UCSD, MA in Education Claremont Grad School- Master history teacher in high school and coaching swimming/water polo.

[jyl]

I started in physics, ended up getting my BA in mathematics. In my senior year I took a class in rhetoric and argument that changed my direction. Went to law school. Never used most of my math or physics again, but during 14 years as a lawyer the way of thinking, concepts and intuition were useful all the time. Then I changed careers, got an MBA and went into investing. Never used most of my law, math, or physics again, but the thinking, concepts and intuition were useful all the time. I hope to have another career before I kick the bucket - maybe I'll have a food cart - and I expect the thinking, you know the rest.

I agree with many of you.
- college isn't trade school. A kid gets out of trade school and will, if things go well, do his trade for the rest of his career. A kid gets out of college and will, if things go well, do many different things such that his first job is just the start.
- but by the same token, the college kid needs to be prepared to learn and adapt, change and strive. If he didn't learn that, uh oh
- and neither of them should come out of school with heavy debt. Exception, perhaps, being the rare kid who will go to Goldman Sachs or Google straight from graduation

[RWebb]

rfloz - that was an actual example I posted, correct in EVERY detail - even the lack of chevre - as such I could not ethically post it in green text

[jyl]

To throw up another example of where "useless" liberal arts degrees can lead - my cousin got her BA in (shudder) English, worked for an freedom of the press NGO in China for some years, making very little money as you can imagine. She then went to law school, clerked for a Supreme Court justice, became a prosecutor with the Justice Dept, tried civil rights cases all over the country. Meanwhile her husband to-be got a BA in (shudder) Poli Sci, went to work for the United Nations HCR (High Commission for Refugees) in Washington DC. He was posted to Geneva so they lived in France near Switzerland for several years, raised their young boys in France, she worked for an international criminal justice think tank, they still own a house in France. They are now in Africa where he runs the UN refugee camps in a country and she is consulting w/ the country's criminal prosecutors. Their next location will be New York or Geneva. These two people, with liberal arts degrees, are having a far more interesting and, I'd say, impactful life than many and, while not rich, are doing fine.

[onewhippedpuppy]

The liberal arts success stories are great, but one very common theme - nearly all of them went on to advanced degrees. A BA in English with a JD is far different than someone with only a BA in English. If you plan to obtain an advanced degree, your bachelor's becomes far less important. I would also argue that many of these are exceptional cases of exceptional people, who likely would have found success regardless of college. The average student who simply wants to graduate and find a good job will likely not find the same success. I have numerous examples of these in my life - sister in law with an English degree that worked at Walgreens, two friends with general Business degrees that have bounced through entry level management positions, my wife's cousin who punted on using his Business degree and ended up a firefighter. These people built up significant debt to obtain a degree that has been of very little use to them in the real world, and would likely have been better served with a major that ties directly to a real world occupation.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

The liberal arts success stories are great, but one very common theme - nearly all of them went on to advanced degrees. A BA in English with a JD is far different than someone with only a BA in English. If you plan to obtain an advanced degree, your bachelor's becomes far less important. I would also argue that many of these are exceptional cases of exceptional people, who likely would have found success regardless of college. The average student who simply wants to graduate and find a good job will likely not find the same success. I have numerous examples of these in my life - sister in law with an English degree that worked at Walgreens, two friends with general Business degrees that have bounced through entry level management positions, my wife's cousin who punted on using his Business degree and ended up a firefighter. These people built up significant debt to obtain a degree that has been of very little use to them in the real world, and would likely have been better served with a major that ties directly to a real world occupation.

But many posting in this thread would argue that a business degree is a reasonable choice. So you give four examples, only one of which got a "useless" degree. I'm back to what the individual did with the opportunities.

Too many people expect things to be easy and straightforward wrt their career. That typically isn't the case, especially in today's job market.

[Cajundaddy]

I think a college degree instills in most the ability to overcome obstacles and accomplish something from beginning to end. Take a set of objectives on the first day of class, develop a plan, do the research and skills development and complete the work on a timeline with known deadlines. Do this over and over again throughout 4 years and you get it. It also often teaches them critical thinking skills. These are valuable skills in life and the specific degree is less important unless they have a career path like medicine or engineering in mind. Spending $250k to learn these skills may not be a good investment for many. Some kids can get through college with decent grades and still fail to thrive in an adult world. I know some of these bright and unfocused kids. I don't think college is the reason or the cure for this. Sometimes 2 years in the Peace Corps or civil service is a better place to for them to develop focus and purpose.

[Seahawk]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, jyl.

I have always loved economics/finance so a BS in economics was a no-brainer for me. I also decided, since I was interested in politics at the international level, to get a BA in International Studies. I wanted to follow in the foot steps of an older family friend who worked in various countries doing risk analysis (political and monetary) for major banks and investment houses.

Both degrees have served little purpose outside of my personal investments and interests, that is just the way it worked out. The accounting courses, stats, etc. have been put to use but, since I retired from the USN, running small businesses has little to do with macro economics day-to-day

The best courses for life I took in college?

Speech and acting classes. I also benefited from tutoring other students and working through college. Getting in front of people, learning the ability to communicate well and impromptu is a critical attribute for growth and opportunity regardless of the degree.

My MS in Systems Engineering has been incredibly useful, still is.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

The best courses for life I took in college?

Speech and acting classes. I also benefited from tutoring other students and working through college. Getting in front of people, learning the ability to communicate well and impromptu is a critical attribute for growth and opportunity regardless of the degree.

^^^ part of why I said either a music performance or studio art class is in my "everyone should take" list. I would favor actor or improv classes over public speaking just because the abstraction helps.

The things I did outside the classroom were easily as important as what I did inside. Then again, I got my partying days out of my system before I went to college so there wasn't a lot of that going on. In addition to course work:

- tutoring other students. Made money doing it, and forced me to really understand the material

- intramural sports. Working as a team and having the discipline to organize your schedule and show up for games

- performing (in my case, in college choir, folk group at mass, rock bands outside of school). The rest of your life you spend selling yourself and your work, and it is often performance art.

College is a time you can piss away, drift through, or cram full of ways to learn and live life. I get the feeling that a lot of people end up doing the first two approaches, in part because they are there because their parents said so. In my case, after 4 years in the real world working dead end jobs, I was seriously motivated.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by nostatic

In my case, after 4 years in the real world working dead end jobs, I was seriously motivated.

Like you, I had enough motivation after working some very menial jobs in my almost two year hiatus for a PHd

But I was in the arena, paying my way.

We are in agreement on everything you wrote. My list is different from yours because I have the voice of Leo Kottke and seemingly have no opposable thumbs when it comes to playing a musical instrument.

So to jyl: Whatever she chooses to do in college, make sure she stretches a bit, takes some off-Broadway courses. I was paired with a Mechanical Engineering student on a project in a three series econ class. It was a requirement for him.

Typical engineering student at the start of the class/project: "Lib A is for the weak, can't believe you'll get a BS for this bs", etc. By the end, probably because we worked very hard on the project in areas he was very uncomfortable with (interviewing business owners, student surveys, etc.), his whole attitude changed.

That is what college is for.

[JavaBrewer]

Great post Paul.

[jyl]

Slightly funny story - we were looking over the housing prices at UO. Room and meals for the academic year ranges from $12K (triple) to $19K (single w/ private bath). Yes, college dorms have gone upscale. My daughter asked how those costs compared to living in the real world. I said, well, the single w/ private bath which is appx $2K/mo is about comparable in cost to a rent for a pretty nice studio apt + utilities + food for one person in Portland. She started comparing that to how much she made working the past two summers (line cook in a summer camp in Yosemite) and announced that she is going to live with me forever. "I hope you don't plan on ever downsizing, dad."

[steve911]

Originally Posted by jyl

Slightly funny story - we were looking over the housing prices at UO. Room and meals for the academic year ranges from $12K (triple) to $19K (single w/ private bath). Yes, college dorms have gone upscale. My daughter asked how those costs compared to living in the real world. I said, well, the single w/ private bath which is appx $2K/mo is about comparable in cost to a rent for a pretty nice studio apt + utilities + food for one person in Portland. She started comparing that to how much she made working the past two summers (line cook in a summer camp in Yosemite) and announced that she is going to live with me forever. "I hope you don't plan on ever downsizing, dad."

John--
Sounds like you've raised a good daughter there. Well done.
We're going through the same drill - my son is a high school senior as well, so the next few days are going to be a roller coaster of ups and downs.

Funny story similar to your daughter's quote. We live in the East Bay. Many years ago, my son asked if it was OK if he went to Cal (my wife is a Stanford grad, so we're an island of Cardinal in a sea of Blue & Gold). I asked him why he was asking the question. His reply? So he could live at home with us!

[nostatic]

So last year Calvin had a few Cs on his report card mid-term. I sat him down for a talk and said to bring a piece of paper and a pencil. I told him that if he wanted to get Cs, that is his choice, but he needed to know the deal here which is:

1. if you go to college you can stay in my house rent-free (assuming he's commuting)
2. if you go away to college the costs will be shared by your 529 (which I have contributed to), your mom, me, and *you*. You will have to either get scholarships or take out a loan. Not a huge one, but there will be skin in the game
3. if you do not go to college, you will either move out of my house upon graduation or pay market rent.

He says, "ok...what's the paper for?" At which point I ask him what a barista at Starbucks makes for a living. He doesn't know, so I say, "ok, let's assume $10/hr. Now, if you get that job out of high school, what will you make per month."

Blank stare. "Write it down!" I say. He does. Comes out to about $1600/mo. I say, "let's round you up to $2000/mo. Now, how much do you think we pay in rent for this house?" Blank stare. "Take a guess." Blank stare. "$4k per month. Now, how much did you earn at Starbucks? Oh, and I forgot to mention that they take taxes out of your check so you get less than $2K. Now, do you know how much we pay in utilities - water, power, gas? How about food?"

At this point tears are running down his face.

"Son, don't get Cs..."

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, jyl.

I have always loved economics/finance so a BS in economics was a no-brainer for me. I also decided, since I was interested in politics at the international level, to get a BA in International Studies. I wanted to follow in the foot steps of an older family friend who worked in various countries doing risk analysis (political and monetary) for major banks and investment houses.

Both degrees have served little purpose outside of my personal investments and interests, that is just the way it worked out. The accounting courses, stats, etc. have been put to use but, since I retired from the USN, running small businesses has little to do with macro economics day-to-day

The best courses for life I took in college?

Speech and acting classes. I also benefited from tutoring other students and working through college. Getting in front of people, learning the ability to communicate well and impromptu is a critical attribute for growth and opportunity regardless of the degree.

My MS in Systems Engineering has been incredibly useful, still is.

Interesting - a friend from racing who is president of the USA side of a multinational company, told me the most important part of his young life to being an executive, was his entering body builder shows/contests. After standing in front of crowds showing off wearing nearly nothing, standing in front of a room of executives wearing a suit to present ideas was quite easy.

Ultimately - if someone has no personal drive, and wander around in college on someone else's money - they've just wasted a few years and a lot of $$$.

I have friends that have made good on their college educations and put them to good use, I know people who never should of wasted their time.

People are individuals - put them all through the same mold - and you'll end up with a lot of broken people. Going to college is not good for everyone - not going to college is not good for everyone.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by jyl

Slightly funny story - we were looking over the housing prices at UO. Room and meals for the academic year ranges from $12K (triple) to $19K (single w/ private bath). Yes, college dorms have gone upscale. My daughter asked how those costs compared to living in the real world. I said, well, the single w/ private bath which is appx $2K/mo is about comparable in cost to a rent for a pretty nice studio apt + utilities + food for one person in Portland. She started comparing that to how much she made working the past two summers (line cook in a summer camp in Yosemite) and announced that she is going to live with me forever. "I hope you don't plan on ever downsizing, dad."

no wonder she made it into the honors program!

BTW - the optimal distance from home to college is far enuff away to keep your parents out of your hair, but close enuff to visit whenever you need to do your laundry