Another question about tankless water heater. I have searched and read

[Evans, Marv]

We've had two tankless water heaters for five years now with no issues whatsoever. We went with propane over electric when I looked at the specs and saw the electric sucked a mind blowing 160 amps at full tilt. They are both 6.5 GPM Rinnai installed by the plumber at the time of construction. Since our house is a flat, single story with 70 ft. between the kitchen & main bath, I chose one at each end of the house instead of two tank heaters or one with a constant recirculating system. One is near the kitchen and laundry room, while the other is for the back bathrooms. For the one servicing the bathrooms, we have a circulating pump activated by a button that brings the hot water to a bath in about a minute and a half. It's true there is a wait for the hot water without the pump. Cost wise I think I figured out it cost 17 cents a day (the rest of the house is electric) but there are only the two of us. In the five years I've had the propane company refill the tank (250 gal. connected via one of those yellow, flexible lines) once after the initial installation & fill up. I still had a decent percentage left, but they called up with a special price of $1.99/gal. I would never buy any type from a big box store. I read they were supposed to be descaled periodically and did mine after about three years and found no scale at all, but your mileage might vary. It's true the new tank heaters are more efficient, but there are also reasons for choosing tankless.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

We've had two tankless water heaters for five years now with no issues whatsoever. We went with propane over electric when I looked at the specs and saw the electric sucked a mind blowing 160 amps at full tilt. They are both 6.5 GPM Rinnai installed by the plumber at the time of construction. Since our house is a flat, single story with 70 ft. between the kitchen & main bath, I chose one at each end of the house instead of two tank heaters or one with a constant recirculating system. One is near the kitchen and laundry room, while the other is for the back bathrooms. For the one servicing the bathrooms, we have a circulating pump activated by a button that brings the hot water to a bath in about a minute and a half. It's true there is a wait for the hot water without the pump. Cost wise I think I figured out it cost 17 cents a day (the rest of the house is electric) but there are only the two of us. In the five years I've had the propane company refill the tank (250 gal. connected via one of those yellow, flexible lines) once after the initial installation & fill up. I still had a decent percentage left, but they called up with a special price of $1.99/gal. I would never buy any type from a big box store. I read they were supposed to be descaled periodically and did mine after about three years and found no scale at all, but your mileage might vary. It's true the new tank heaters are more efficient, but there are also reasons for choosing tankless.

Scale filter should be installed somewhere the water enters the heater. Tell you the truth, I have been messing with and talking to engineers and sales people about these units for over 15 years before they got popular. I was the sucker that tested them on my own house way back then. I like it, but it MUST be maintained. Descale is one of those chores. CLR is suggested, but vinegar will work but not as effective. As far as those big blue scale filters are concern, I have never seen one clogged or need replacement. I often wonder if they are doing its job (i am sure it is).

[look 171]

The one thing they usually don't tell you is that the igniter sometimes go bad or have carbon build up. That's part of the routine maintenance they almost do not ever tell you about.

[imcarthur]

We switched to Rinnai tankless gas a couple of years ago. The only downside is hot water lag. I am the cook of the house & I wash my hands frequently while doing it, of course. The two other family members have an extremely irritating habit of only getting a cold water drink from the kitchen sink. Despite my frequent rants, I spend a lot of time waiting for hot water.

Ian

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by look 171

The one thing they usually don't tell you is that the igniter sometimes go bad or have carbon build up. That's part of the routine maintenance they almost do not ever tell you about.

Is that a DIY job?
The pilot keeps going out on my tank water heater... so I think "no problem I will just put a new thermocouple in there".
I pull the pilot assembly out and it has some weird thermistor thing that was broke.
Being a tech I was able to get out a soldering iron and do a work around... but the old tank water heaters are not as simple as they used to be (or long lived).

Not sure what all the complaining about "hot water lag" even with a tank WH I have to wait for the hot water to get to wherever I am using it.

I live in a small beach house and it just would be nice to save the space of a tank water heater, I presume you can't install them outside?

[URY914]

Everyone seems to be able to get GAS tankless but I'm not able to get gas (well my wife may disagree with that). What about ELECTRIC tankless? From what I read/hear electric tankless is not such big a cost saving over a new highly insulated tank type.

[vash]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

I live in a small beach house and it just would be nice to save the space of a tank water heater, I presume you can't install them outside?

Mine is an outdoor unit. Huge cost advantage by not having to dick around with exhaust pipes. You have to buy an outdoor one. I cannot put exhaust piping on mine. I have a square exhaust vent that is fluted against rain in front of the unit.

Bonus. My bathroom is right near my gas main. So we put it very close to the shower. I get almost instantaneous hot water. I flip on the water and I have just enough time to ditch my panties. I jump right in.

Mine has a remote control I mounted inside my bathroom closet. It uses that lightweight wire, similar to doorbell or telephone cord. I can adjust water temp, shut it off, etc. it also gives me messages to unit health. For instance it flashes a "FL" when I need to flush the unit with vinegar to remove scale. My water is great. I haven't done it yet.

I went with a rinnai.



Sent via Jedi mind trick.

[Jim Richards]

Ours is mounted outside, too. No exhaust piping required.

[Typ616]

Did it upstairs, left the tank downstairs. Why ? Best of both worlds (keep a tank in case water is out, hurricane, quake, whatever)...

+ Tankless is great when there's a risk of water damage from a burst tank (upstairs).
+ It's great to give unlimited fresh warm water (i.e if you live with a woman and 3 teenage daughters).
+ takes little space, none inside (on an external gas one)
+ $50 electrical savings, $3 extra in gas ;-)

- Costs a lot more to buy and install & piggy back into your water supply.
- Another box on the side of your house, yeah (not)
- Takes longer than a tank to get in gear and provide warm water
- Did have some temperature control issues if you want lukewarm (summer), it cut out on me. Obviously it's more sensitive to water inlet temps, so takes longer in winter, and in summer it would give me water that was too hot and then cut out... we installed new faucet "mixers" and it helped but I'd say it sucks at lukewarm, admittedly not a huge deal.

All in all, given the price of a tank, maybe a new clean tank isn't that bad: kinda like buying a diesel or hybrid, good MPG but how long before you recoup your $ ?
If you got the cash and need infinite hot water, or like me had a tank upstairs that was taking closet space, why not. It's alright. But not a life changing thing... You can go either way and be fine !

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Ours is mounted outside, too. No exhaust piping required.

So... if you buy an outdoor one you don't need to build a cabinet for it (Like you would for a tank water heater if placed outdoors).

I'm liking this more all the time!

[vash]

No. It is sealed against weather.


Sent via Jedi mind trick.

[johnsjmc]

I put in a Rheem tankless in my last house.The Cdn govt at the time was giving a $800 grant to encourage installing them. It required a larger gas line than the previous tank style heater. That,s part of the extra expense. It also requires a direct vent to be cut thru the wall instead of up the chimney with the furnace.
I was never able to see a significant saving on my gas bill.
My biggest complaint came after 10 months use.
I returned from a 2 month trip to Florida and it wouldn,t light. It has a 1 yr parts &labour warranty. The warranty requires you to deal with a call centre (in Georgia I think).
they sent a new ignition unit overnight which means 2 days to Canada ,that didn,t fix it.The factory authorized repairer then ordered a new board after more time on the phone. 2 days later that didn,t fix it either. They then authorized a new unit which was in stock at the local home depot. That did fix it BUT I was without hot water for 6 days. My wife was livid.
A standard gas water heater would have had parts available in town and would have been repaired on day one.
This was for a unit under full warranty. The parts only warranty covers year 2-5. Then I would have had to pay for the labour or do the diagnosis myself and work thru the 800 number.
We have since moved and now have installed a new direct vent gas tank with a standing pilot. (Which will probably last 20 yrs here).

[look 171]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Is that a DIY job?
The pilot keeps going out on my tank water heater... so I think "no problem I will just put a new thermocouple in there".
I pull the pilot assembly out and it has some weird thermistor thing that was broke.
Being a tech I was able to get out a soldering iron and do a work around... but the old tank water heaters are not as simple as they used to be (or long lived).

Not sure what all the complaining about "hot water lag" even with a tank WH I have to wait for the hot water to get to wherever I am using it.

I live in a small beach house and it just would be nice to save the space of a tank water heater, I presume you can't install them outside?

I always push the owner so we can install it outside, unless its up in the attic. The vent pipes are big bucks. I like it outside for one major reason: Servicemen do not ever have to be inside the house. No dripping water when you descale, all the mess is outside. Yes, like Vash said, only a cap is needed and no SS vent pipes that cost an arm and a leg.

Yes, its a DIY deal, but it will take a bit of time. I still have not done it to my own yet, but I have change them out for clients a couple of times. They really last a long time if you have a water softener.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by johnsjmc

I put in a Rheem tankless in my last house.The Cdn govt at the time was giving a $800 grant to encourage installing them. It required a larger gas line than the previous tank style heater. That,s part of the extra expense. It also requires a direct vent to be cut thru the wall instead of up the chimney with the furnace.
I was never able to see a significant saving on my gas bill.
My biggest complaint came after 10 months use.
I returned from a 2 month trip to Florida and it wouldn,t light. It has a 1 yr parts &labour warranty. The warranty requires you to deal with a call centre (in Georgia I think).
they sent a new ignition unit overnight which means 2 days to Canada ,that didn,t fix it.The factory authorized repairer then ordered a new board after more time on the phone. 2 days later that didn,t fix it either. They then authorized a new unit which was in stock at the local home depot. That did fix it BUT I was without hot water for 6 days. My wife was livid.
A standard gas water heater would have had parts available in town and would have been repaired on day one.
This was for a unit under full warranty. The parts only warranty covers year 2-5. Then I would have had to pay for the labour or do the diagnosis myself and work thru the 800 number.
We have since moved and now have installed a new direct vent gas tank with a standing pilot. (Which will probably last 20 yrs here).

Now water heaters do not last 20 years. Those were the days when we were kids. Rheem make a great water heater, but not tankless. I wouldn't buy their tankless if you paid me.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

So... if you buy an outdoor one you don't need to build a cabinet for it (Like you would for a tank water heater if placed outdoors).

I'm liking this more all the time!

No cabinet needed. They need to vent. I am working on a house right now where the owner (wife) really dislike the looks of having it outside (existing), so we are relocating it in the attic. Cutting roof, SS vent, gas, drain lines, recirc. pump and timer and electrical is going to be crazy money. But, she likes to not see it. I say, good for her and she need to put her foot down goshdarnit. She's actually pretty damn nice to deal with.

[look 171]

like this scott.

[Typ616]

A couple things I forgot....

- The consensus seems to be that GAS tankless provide great savings. Electric ones NOT.

- Pay attention to where the existing gas line is for your application, vs how it's gonna be plumbed into your water... Another reason I only got one tankless installed (wanted 2) was that tank#2 was on the other side of the house and running a gas line all the way there would have cost more. As it is, we had a couple extra "ugly" water lines going up the wall as a result of the tankless (outside wall downstairs, for servicing) feeding the upstairs. No biggie, just info...

[TheMentat]

I use a gas Navien to supply hot water and slab heat in my detached garage. I don't think id use one for domestic hot water in the house because of the lag. One nice feature is a hot/cold hose bib on the outside of the house. I can refill/heat by hot tub cheaper and faster than ever before, power wash w/ hot water, and run a warm sprinkler for the kids if I want.

[Evans, Marv]

Jeff, when you said "scale filter," you mentioned a blue canister. I have a 20 in. x 4 in., 5 micron prefilter (with a blue spin on canister) before my water enters the softening/treatment system for the house. Is that what you were talking about? Also my outside water heater is built into the outside wall between the studs and has a removable panel for access to the heater. Seems like that kind of set up might be an alternative to the attic installation you describe with all the associated mods and expense.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

Jeff, when you said "scale filter," you mentioned a blue canister. I have a 20 in. x 4 in., 5 micron prefilter (with a blue spin on canister) before my water enters the softening/treatment system for the house. Is that what you were talking about? Also my outside water heater is built into the outside wall between the studs and has a removable panel for access to the heater. Seems like that kind of set up might be an alternative to the attic installation you describe with all the associated mods and expense.

this thing TAC Anti-Scale System for Tankless Water Heaters - FreshWaterSystems.com

usually they are mounted close to the heater, but I suppose it can be mounted anywhere before the water enters the heater.

Thanks for the tip on the heater sitting between the stubs bsy. Personally I think its the nicest solution, but not all heater is that narrow or home are built to accommodate a larger heater. This woman is a real sweet heart but knows exactly what she wants, and are not at all afraid to pay for service. Easy for me, easy for them.