Good Dog Gone Bad: Biting other dogs and now us.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

Mrs Saucy and I will be making a difficult decision over the next couple days.

My heart goes out to the both of you. I'm with the majority as to what to do, but that doesn't make it any easier.

[911SauCy]

Originally Posted by tabs

Mrs Saucy freaked the dog....her fears are probably what set it all off in the first place...

This could not be more wrong.

I'm sensing you think my wife and I are those clueless people on Caesar Milan who are afraid of a barking dog...

If that's the picture I painted with a brief description, I did myself a disservice.

But the finger pointing at what disconnected dog people we are is VERY WRONG.

If we had a phone convo or you actually knew me I'm sure your perception would be different.

Which is why I was genuinely asking for help.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

---snip---

Which is why I was genuinely asking for help.

OK going back to your first post you said this:

Vet says...call a trainer. I hate dog trainers but have not experienced a dog personality shift like this before either.

What to do...

My response was to agree with your vet - get a "specialist" involved.

Maybe the vet has someone in mind. A trainer or behaviorist.

Please do that and let us know what happens.

No one here can do as much as someone who is hands on.

You owe this to your dog, your family, and yourself.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

I'm sensing you think my wife and I are those clueless people on Caesar Milan

Nobody thinks you are clueless but your statments indicate that you don't understand how a dog thinks, therefore you have difficulty creating an environment for your dog that is healthy for all concerned. I'm not trying to criticise you, so don't take it personally, but you asked why this happened and are seemingly wanting to understand what to do to fix it. To do that, you need to learns some things about dogs.

For example, your comments about scolding a dog after it has done something to irritate you indicate that you don't understand that your behavior does nothing to "fix" the problem, it only creates other problems. It's a classic, common case of what not to do.

Listen to Baz, or read a book. In the meantime, keep the baby away from the dog, which is good advice in any case. Babies need to be kept away from any animal, or any other thing/situation that could harm them.

JR

[wdfifteen]

Good for you for trying to learn the best course of action SauCy. You are a great human being. Too many people don't even try.
While my step daughter was at the vet with a foster dog (she works with the local pit bull rescue) some guy brought a beautiful Gordon Retriever looking dog in - four years old, dirty, underweight by 25%, and wanted to have the vet put it down. He was moving and caring for the dog wasn't convenient so he wanted it killed!
I may end up with him. I have two dogs and don't really need another, but he is a sweetheart and needs love and care so bad...

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Good for you for trying to learn the best course of action SauCy. You are a great human being. Too many people don't even try.
...

Well put!!! Guys, let's stop the "dogpile"....Saucy "gets it" and will do the right thing for his family and little buddy imo...

[RacerX1166]

You may also contact your local SPCA with regard to behavioral modification and/or assessment. Most are pretty generous with their trainers since doing so helps keep more dogs from being surrendered. They may also be able to recommend a trainer to work with.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Baz

You owe this to your dog, your family, and yourself.

No. When your infant child is involved, you don't owe s*** to any dog.

Dogs are digital.
They are reliable in that they respond to stimulus the same way.
Every single time.

You, your wife, or your child, should be able to swat the dog and instantly put him in submission-mode.
Any time, day or night.
Humans are boss.
That is the pack order.
It either gets it, or it doesn't.

[450knotOffice]

I agree with Baz and the others who advocate seeing and working with a specialist - someone like Cesar Milan, who, while he may be a "celebrity", still obviously knows how dogs think, act, behave. He helps normal people, such as you and me, with their dogs.

Wow, John. I feel sorry for any dogs that may live with you.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Wow, John. I feel sorry for any dogs that may live with you.

Sure...
Walks twice a day while waiting for the corner sniff inspections to end, driving to the dog park 2-5x/wk (for hours at a time), good bites for good pups with every meal, rub downs, letting them off the leash in every safe location to just be animals.

My dogs sure have a terrible life.

[john70t]

Biting/aggression is a sign of pack dominance.
That won't change.

I've been chased out of my own house by the girlfriend's dog at least a dozens times.
He's bitten me, her daughter, her best friend, almost her a couple of times, and almost got several people on the street after approaching them with a wagging tail.
He still has 'moments' but we know now.

After the g/f and I met, I started feeding and walked him 90% of the time.
The more I gave him love and attention, the more aggressive he became.
My love was a sign of human weakness/vulnerability to that dog.
He was already programmed.

[911SauCy]

I may be onto something as a woman I work with volunteers at a rescue/no kill shelter and is able to get me in touch with a behaviorist. They will evaluate and recommend appropriate direction.

I'm not cool with putting the dog down, especially as a first step.

Regarding how a dog thinks...

I have a fenced 2 acre yard and 2 metal crates. I leave 2 dogs in the yard all day because I think keeping them crated is crap, yes they're dogs, but I wouldn't want to be in a metal box all day. Now by understanding how they think, how am I supposed to stop them from digging to China in the middle of the lawn while nobody is home all day?

Then once they've ruined something, I'm supposed to ignore reactive discipline because I should have known better as to how they're thinking?

Guys, these are just thoughts that (in relation to what I'm dealing with) pop into my head when it's suggested to read a dog book. I'm truly trying to fathom the direction you're pointing me in.

My gut says, "they're dogs, they're going to trash crap." When they do, they get in trouble from their master, "pack leader." They are very smart and know what is bad...like kids. When I was a kid and did something bad, I got in trouble. If I "bit" back I got smacked harder...I now understand the pecking order of life, respect, and what's right/wrong. Wouldn't change a thing.

This could lean PARF-ish quickly...I'll cut it off there

[vash]

Adopting a dog can be awesome. It can also be a nightmare.

We all come from all walks of life. There is no set formula for pet ownership. Some folks freak out if you even call it pet ownership. I had a lady yell at me and tell me I don't own the dog. He's a companion animal.

She flipped me off in the middle of petsmart when I replied, "yea? I bet you have a bunch of companions cats at home."

The cashier told me later that lady had a lot of cats. She was covered in hair.

[foxpaws]

How hard this must be - my heart goes out to your family saucy...

It sounds like you are investigating the 'behaviorist' route - which is really great- there will be probably lots of time and effort needed. However, you do really need to ask yourself, even if you do go the behaviorist route "Will I ever feel that my family is safe around this dog". If you can't absolutely, positively say 'Yes', maybe you might need to look at other options. I am sure there are lots of avenues that a behaviorist will know of where the dog can be placed in another situation if you just feel that you and your family will always be 'iffy' about the dog.

Just like Ceaser takes in many 'troubled' dogs, there are people like that everywhere. There shouldn't be a need to put the dog down, but you may need to find a better situation for the animal.

Good luck - tough road ahead, but I hope it works out for the best - man and beast....

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by john70t

Biting/aggression is a sign of pack dominance.
That won't change......

There are NO absolutes in life when dealing with people/animals...I disagree. A collie who'd been picked on by neighborhood kids, sunk his tooth 1/4" deep right next to my eye socket when I was about 5 years old (still have the scar...could have easily lost an eye), because he thought I was holding a pail of food (it was dirt) above my head. A few years later, I was the only one who was able to feed him when they were out of town. Some years down the road, he was docile and never showed aggresion again....(it was my aunt/cousins dog). That was 50 years ago, and I've had "my way" of dealing with dogs ever since....highly effective, and it comes natural for me. Lots of ways to "skin a dawg" imo....YMMV.

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

I may be onto something as a woman I work with volunteers at a rescue/no kill shelter and is able to get me in touch with a behaviorist. They will evaluate and recommend appropriate direction.

I'm not cool with putting the dog down, especially as a first step.
.....

Fantastic! Please keep us informed...LOTS of folks are pulling for you and your pal....I KNOW I am .

Good luck!!!

[Nathans_Dad]

I appreciate all the effort Saucy is putting into this but in the end, IT'S A FREAKIN DOG. There is no way on God's green earth I would put my kids into any form of danger over a dog. Sorry, just the way the world works.

Yes, bad owners and poor training can cause poor behavior in a dog. I have also seen dogs that are just plain aggressive. Guess what, they were BRED THAT WAY. People who have pit bulls, dobermans or chows have to understand the dogs were bred to be aggressive. It's in their DNA. Either train the holy heck out of them or don't get that breed.

[RacerX1166]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Yes, bad owners and poor training can cause poor behavior in a dog. I have also seen dogs that are just plain aggressive. Guess what, they were BRED THAT WAY. People who have pit bulls, dobermans or chows have to understand the dogs were bred to be aggressive. It's in their DNA. Either train the holy heck out of them or don't get that breed.

Breeds are not generally bred to be aggressive, rather protective. There's a big difference. That's why I have no issue being around the breeds you mentioned (add Shepherds, Malinois, and a few others to round things out) so long as the dog knows I'm welcome in its den. I had a young Doberman for short time; not really trained yet. That dog would defend the backyard against invaders to within an inch of its life. Once I nicely introduced her to the evil invading neighbor, indicating he wasn't so nasty, she would run to the edge of the fence to say hi whenever she saw him.

Some individual animals are indeed hard wired to be inherently dangerous; fear, man issues, separation anxiety, stranger issues, resource guarding). It makes them unpredictable, which I tend to have an issue with. These issues can also be acquired via environment, which is usually the case.

[mossguy]

Keeping an infant in close proximity to an unpredictable biting dog, is child abuse!

[Amail]

Originally Posted by mossguy

Keeping an infant in close proximity to an unpredictable biting dog, is child abuse!

I'd call it child endangerment, but the sentiment's the same.

If you're tallying votes, put me in the "Find Fido a new home" camp. If you're really interested in keeping the dog and going with a behaviorist, but also concerned for your family's well being, how about putting the dog in a different situation but still having contact? You can then work with him and find out if you have a chance of bringing him back from the dark side without the risk of sending your family members to the ER.

[Rikao4]

the only thing Saucy doesn't have is time...
he has the heart..
the will..
the $...
but the kid is here now...
I've dealt with a dog like this...
and accepted the help of a pro..
he slept by my side for 10 yrs afterwards..
but it took time..
and no kids involved or present..

Rika