60's/70's muscle car/domestic sedan handling question (pro touring?)

[obrut]

A question for those of you with 60's and 70's muscle car, and similar domestic sedans, experience.

How well can you get them to handle and stop, relative to modern sedan type cars, with all the upgrade stuff available today: eg 4/5 link setups, coilovers, Watts linkage, complete replacement IFS setups (double wishbone), disc brake kits, chassis connectors/stiffeners, power steering kits etc etc.

Toying with idea of a "big three" classic station wagon - with modernised engine (efi), suspension and brakes. Thinking it could tow my race car and also be a fun kiddie and dog hauler. The ikon derelict cars seem to be the high water mark for this.

However, I have no real experience with this type of car. As one example, the before and after reviews for hotchkis kits seem very positive but I don't have a feel for how bad the 'before' was.

[pavulon]

Money (plenty), time, effort (or more of your money) and choosing carefully should get to about 60 to 70% of a modern car. After that, the return on investment gets ugly quickly but you'll get a really *****'n wagon!!

If possible, it would be better to but one that's pretty well done by someone who will lose their shirt selling it to you. Maybe buy a used Cayenne turbo or something and enjoy modern performance, comfort and towing?

[masraum]

Back in the day, when I read Hot Rod, Car Craft and Popular Hot Rodding, they used to get the old iron, like Chevy II, Nova, Chevelle and even a '65 Impala (among others) to turn 1G on the skidpad. Baer makes (or did back in the day) 4 wheel disc brake kits for most of the popular stuff. You're probably not going to turn any of those into an AMG Mercedes, but you should be able to get the more popular stuff to handle reasonably well. When I bought my first 911, I was thinking of building a resto-mod (I think that's what they're called) car myself. That way you get the looks and character of the old cars, but with some of the more modern stuff like efi, brakes, handling, etc.... How much money you spend will depend a lot on what car you buy. Getting something more common (chevelle/malibu or BOP equivalent, maybe a torino or falcon or fairlane) will determine your $$$. A Chevy Chevelle/Malibu based car would probably be the cheapest of the bunch, maybe whatever the Ford version (Torino) would be similar. I think anything Chrysler, Dodge or Plymouth will probably run a bit more. Buick, Olds or Pontiac will be close, but not quite unless you swap in a Chevy crate motor.

Chevy and Ford small blocks will be the cheapest motors to work with. Common chassis will be the cheapest to deal with the suspension and brakes. Back in the day, there were often brakes from other models that would swap in to get upgrades which may save some dough over an off the shelf, aftermarket upgrade or may not depending upon what's required.

I'd love to have that sort of toy.

[LWJ]

I read of some classic muscle cars hitting 1g on the skidpad with simple mods like good bushings, sway bars, tires, and shocks (I think). It wasn't that big of a deal from the article. Mind you, this is a car journalist who is making this stuff up. I suspect you could have a very passable wagon if you massaged things a little. Not an autocrosser, but something fun and respectable.

[quattrorunner]

Don't let anyone talk you our of it!!
Such an awesome idea.
Think vista cruiser with an ls6 slamed on coil overs or airbags, modern electronics inside hidden but there.
4 wheel discs with large calipers, healthy duel exhausts, fat tires etc.
or perhaps a country squire or even sport wagon. Just such a cool idea.
I wanted to do it too. It could be done for less than the cost of a modern sport wagon.

[obrut]

Thanks for the feedback gents. We live inner city and don't really do a huge amount of miles which makes me think this idea could be feasible - and fun!

I've also never owned anything like this before. I went straight from a datsun 510 to a newish Japanese gti then, aside from a few regular cars, the rest has been a long procession of air cooled 911s.

The research continues...

[Steve Carlton]

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

Don't let anyone talk you our of it!!
Such an awesome idea.
Think vista cruiser with an ls6 slamed on coil overs or airbags, modern electronics inside hidden but there.
4 wheel discs with large calipers, healthy duel exhausts, fat tires etc.
or perhaps a country squire or even sport wagon. Just such a cool idea.
I wanted to do it too. It could be done for less than the cost of a modern sport wagon.

That would be sweet. I'm a bit younger though, so as crazy as it sounds my ideal would be an '83 Caprice wagon like my parents had with the same sort of treatment.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Very cool idea, and one that I have entertained many times. Just go into it with eyes wide open, you'll never get a large, heavy, old wagon with a solid rear axle to handle like a sports sedan. You can greatly improve it, but it still will be a cruiser at heart.

[Nickshu]

Many of these classics have disc brake upgrade kits, power steering kits, and power brake kits. Makes a world of difference. Unless you are buying a Mustang keep in mind many of these kits are not simple bolt on, they require some fabrication and fitting. Brake upgrades will require bigger wheels. This assumes you are keeping the stock suspension. As far as suspension, the sky is the limit. I have seen Corvette C6 suspension put under various cars with a lot of fabrication. All it takes is money, time and patience for trial and error. Unfortunately a lot of those "restoration" (I use that term loosely) shows on the Velocity channel make many of these types of projects seem easier than they are, even for the pros.

There are lots of cool classic wagons out there you could do. Chevy Nomads seem to command a relatively high price when restored, but they are only two door. Personally I think the Pontiac Bonneville Safari Wagon would make a cool Resto-mod. Back end is SO huge, you could put 4 big dogs in there and still have extra space!

[Rick V]

Chrysler's from the late 60's were boats but they did have torsion bar front ends, and handled very well for being barges. The brake conversion would not be hard to manage and the EFI stuff is all just bolt on no matter where you went. Add to the fact that everybody does Ford and Chevy, why not do something different?
I like the idea of a modern old school sled for utility, google is your friend here and deep pockets are required but there are lots of worse things you can do with your money

[cashflyer]

Like Rick V, I was (am?) a Mopar lover. Here are a few quick and easy things to address your issues.

On all of the cars we modded/hot-rodded, the first thing to do was a brake upgrade. My father and I were doing this before the availability of so much aftermarket stuff, so it should be dead simple now. So, ditch the 14 & 15 inch rims. Step up to 16s so you can stuff a decent sized rotor behind them. Use either big single piston calipers, or preferably dual piston calipers. I understand that you can now buy disc conversions for the rear of the old Mopars now.

Along with this mod, stiffen the spring rate some. On a Mopar, this is done by changing out the torsion bars. Use good shocks. Box in the lower control arm for strength. Make sure all of the suspension rubbers are good. Changing to polyurethane bushings adds stiffness and a noisy ride.

Tie the front clip to the rear clip for body rigidity.

[Steve Carlton]

[ckelly78z]

I really like the idea of a pro touring style 67-72 Malibu station wagon with an LS motor and a 6 speed trans, and Hotchkiss suspension. I think I would lay down dynamat all over the metal interior bits for a quieter ride, new autometer gauges, and aftermarket A/C.

The problem with a mid 70s sled, is that the full size wagons weigh so damn much, that the handling will always be sloppy.

[scottmandue]

I used to race around town in my moms 69 Impala station wagon (easier to get that my dad's Olds Cutlass). It was stock but had the 'towing package', 327 with a four barrel, 12 bolt rear end with a sway bar. Loved that car!

[Oh Haha]

I thought this was a cool build. The show itself can be cheesy at times but the host does a good job of telling where parts might be had for the projects.http://youtu.be/Pv-5CE8tG4I



A different direction>

5 series BMW Touring with a twin turbo American V8 and a 6 speed gearbox.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by pavulon

Money (plenty), time, effort (or more of your money) and choosing carefully should get to about 60 to 70% of a modern car. After that, the return on investment gets ugly quickly but you'll get a really *****'n wagon!!

If possible, it would be better to but one that's pretty well done by someone who will lose their shirt selling it to you. Maybe buy a used Cayenne turbo or something and enjoy modern performance, comfort and towing?

lots of money thrown at it- old cars will NEVER have the rigidity of a modern car- old car body feels so loose it's like the fenders and doors aren't even bolted on- car will ride poorly due to the high spring rates and with that come lots of interior noise of course.

My 70 LeMans has poly bushings and lowered springs- skateboard riding across gravel is quieter IMHO.

Do it just for the novelty, don't expect it to rival a modern car in comfort tho. You won't mistake the ride quality for a BMW.

rjp

[J P Stein]

My goal with a 65 Mustang is to get to ride, handle, & brake as well as my 05 Tacoma TRD pickup. On the face of it, it seems laughable, but after a year+ of TM&E. It ain't there yet. Nor is it as comfortable.

1 G on a pad is only a small part of making a good car......Karts do better than that but you don't wanna' drive one cross country.

Old merican' cars weren't worth spit handling/braking wise when new. Unless you're lucky, bout any of em' have been worked over by POs or their lowest bidder hammer mechanics for 40-50 years......and are much worse than new.
Not speaking of rust yet.........

Get a newer pickup......unless you want a collectable classic.

Can't think of anything along the lines of that description.......cept a Chevy Nomad.....55-57.....bring a boat load of cash. Even then it won't be as civilized as the Tacoma.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Oh Haha

A different direction>

5 series BMW Touring with a twin turbo American V8 and a 6 speed gearbox.

Or a Volvo station wagon... no, seriously!

[creaturecat]

Like swimming upstream, making a big pig handle well.
Looking forward to the build.