And that's where we go full circle in the discussion, IMO.

Because out of the riskier 05-08s, only "some" 05s are potentially elegible for an IMS upgrade without splitting the case (which is cost prohibitive). And you *cannot* tell which is which without buying it first and taking a look - I doubt the seller will agree to split the tranny from the motor in a PPI ;-) A car that has already been done would be the ticket for sure, but likely pricier.

There is an active lawsuit where VIN #s have been released "in scope" but in practice, people are finding out the numbers are not accurate enough to base a purchase decision on... So your best bet if you are a gambler is a super early 05 997 whose VIN you see in the lawsuit (I can't post the PDF of it, if someone can host it for everyone, PM me)

>So worst case on a 997 is that you have to replace the engine. It looks like a replacement engine is about $15k installed. Yeah I'd take the 05-08.

Stats wise, I understand, odds are good. But if you are in that bad group, it's gotta suck. Also from direct experience (a friend who blew his CaymanS on track racing me), those numbers are not necessarily accurate anymore. Porsche had engines/labor discounted as goodwill for a while, but now they sell you a stripped block (which BTW is still not a 9A1, so the clock starts ticking again) and by the time you factor labor to strip your block, replace whatever makes sense to replace, my friend was quoted closer to 20-25K. (He went aftermarket and 3.8 instead for the same $;-) And the car's value is still that of a MkI.

Personally I want this car to be the last newish 911 I ever buy (don't want electric steering or 7 speed box, or PDK), so I don't know if Gen1s make sense yet. I'd sleep better with a 9A1 - but there are so few of them for sale. Then again for the longest time M96s were bad and now with LN's solution they are desirable again, who knows if someone won't come up with a clever fix for 05-08s down the road ?

Not sure what the actual chances are but I have an acquaintance with a 997.1, bought new that is on its third engine on Porsche's dime. He has some miles on the car, (can't remember exact mileage), but it lunched one engine @ 30-40k miles and then the first replacement sometime later. I'll try to get some further details. It is an early 997S.

I've known other people with '05 997s who bought them new and have been driving the snot out of them for ten years without so much as a hiccup. I'd love one for the right price. :cool:

Every car is at risk of a major expensive issue. The 2006+ 997 and 987 overall have such a low failure rate that I would not (and don't) have any issue with them as a daily driver.

Every car is not at an equal risk for an expensive issue, not by a long shot. In fact, this an almost unique situation, I cannot think of another expensive luxury or sports car that spontaneously self-destructs its engine with a full crankcase of clean oil and a functioning cooling system in any numbers, much less in disturbingly frequent numbers.

I like these cars a lot and am somewhat in the market for one but lets be real. This is not some, "every car has its issues", thing. Toyota Tundra PU trucks do not eat their own engines. BMWs do not. I could go on for a whole page. It's a major design flaw. :cool:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1428975227.jpg

Very close to listing my late '06 S for sale. Low miles. Rare factory options.

Lots of so called "normal cars" have had issues with oil cooking leading to engine failure. BMWs destroy fuel pumps, destroy rear subframes, and lunch their VANOS. But let's look at Porsches. What about chain tensioner failures leading to Carrera oil fed tensioners? Cracked or pulled head studs? Valve guides that might last 100k? There are a LOT of potential gotchas in Porsche history. Frankly this is one of the lower incidence rates, good luck getting very far past 100k without a pricey top-end on an air-cooled 911. These aren't Toyotas and never have been.

I'm pretty well-versed in the entire development history of the 911 and the other issues you bring up here but none of them compare to the IMS issue on water pampers. Pulled studs do not grenade a motor and none of your examples caused catastrophic engine failure on low mileage cars. Valve guides and top end jobs are things that don't even take the cars off the road, much less destroy them. Same with the BMW issues. We all know that all cars have issues and spotty maintainance can cause sludge issues and engine damage but this is in another category altogether. We're talking about perfectly maintained engines self-destructing with low miles due to a major design flaw. Not some part that just wears prematurely, (like valve guides). They're not analogous.

I just happened to run into my friend who is on his third engine tonight. The first one went @ 60k miles; (covered under warranty), second one @ exactly 120k, Porsche ate it and gave him a supposedly "updated" engine, he now has 140k on it and running good. This is a 2006 997S, bought new. He loves the car, other than the engines self-destructing. Both were IMS issues and both came out of nowhere with no warnings along the way. :(

I have a feeling that "matching numbers" is never going to be a big deal on these cars down the road. :)

Two IMSB failures for two engines to the same owner points to a much higher failure rate than discussed, especially for a 2006.

So, what's with the class-action lawsuit? Any timetable for a resolution and speculation on what the outcome might be?

I agree about the air-cooled 911 issues Denis, my point was more regarding money. Repairing snapped head studs or doing a top end rebuild on a classic 911 is very near to the cost of a new M96 engine. If your top end turns into a full rebuild it could easily be more if new P&Cs are required. Your buddy has terrible luck, because for every owner that has an IMS failure there are probably one hundred with no issues.

Steve, the IMS lawsuit is done and I think the timeframe to make a claim has passed.

We've had the same discussion in the 996 thread (except me as speeder, word for word, and Matt as Matt ;-) It just comes down to your level of confidence. The odds are pretty good the 997 will not blow up on you - no denying that. But in my book, *I* will be in the 5%, and therefore I prefer a fixable early Gen1 (impossible to know) or a Gen2. That's not unreasonable either. If you are selling them or looking for a deal, I imagine your priorities differ, as they are good deals and the odds are low. I want to keep it for a long time.

Like Speeder I have indirect but close (good friend) experience of those lunching themselves (on track, before my eyes)... I object a bit to the prices mentioned above. I said it before, today, it's closer to 20K+ to have a swap done - more if you do a clutch and water pump and whatever else. That buys a ****load of top end rebuilds and studs in the aircooled world. The IMS is more akin to a piston ventilating a case, which is not the kind of engineering cockups we've seen in Porsches of past....

The IMS suit would not help Steve. Largely it was for M96 engines, and only included very early 2005 997s with a low degree of accuracy, VIN wise. I can PM it to you in PDF form if you want... 997, you are on your own. So yeah, it comes down to your comfort level, nobody is right or wrong here and nobody knows the exact failure rate. The market however speaks by showing a 10K+ bump between gen1 and gen2s of close year/mileage. And I've owned 4 IMS cars without an issue - I just want my long term 997 to let me sleep at night ;-)

Good info here. Question that I'm sure has been discussed before- if an IMSB update was done on an early 2005, would it put that issue to bed permanently? How many hours of labor are involved separating the engine/transmission? I could see if one was serious and a clutch replacement could be not too early, it could be the final phase of a PPI/purchase.

You bet. Proof that an 05 was done would make it a primo choice and likely command extra $. An independent quoted me about $2500-3000 to do that + a clutch at the same time (all parts and labor, bearing, clutch, etc). Less if you don't do the clutch, but seems silly not to since it's right in your face.

Final PPI, though ? I sincerely doubt an owner would say " sure go ahead and split my tranny from the engine, remove my clutch, just so you can see if it's an upgradeable car"... Even if he did, it'd be an expensive PPI for you if you do not end up buying the car.

Just thinking out loud... "I'll buy your car if it has an upgradable IMSB (and do the work with a new clutch)." If it's not upgradable, well, the seller now knows and has a big discount on popping in a new clutch for himself. (Hey, I fell into a pun there).

I'd have a hard enough time finding an '05 that I'd like in the first place, let alone it being a unicorn with an IMSB upgrade. Seems like the value on my minty 1985 is going up and would pay for most of the cost of upgrading to a 997.

Yeah, a real unicorn. Never find one of those. :(

This took me about 8 seconds:


Porsche 911 Carrera | eBay

Already has the IMS upgrade and new clutch at the same time. As for your PPI idea, it would require removing the flywheel, not just the clutch. I don't know if there is a Porsche owner on earth that would let a strange shop tear down his car that far to find a fault that would make you not buy it? :confused:

I would not let anyone even touch my car in a PPI unless it was spark plugs or valve covers and I at least knew the shop's reputation. Lastly, (and this is directed at the Internet in general, not you), "intermediate" is one word. The correct abbreviation or acronym would be ISB, or IS, if you like it shorter. WTF are people getting "IM"? One letter for each sylable? It still doesn't add up. That would be (5) letters for "intermediate". :rolleyes:

Sorry, just had to vent. :eek:

I looked at a 2005 911S with the IMSB (or ISB) upgrade done and was seriously considering the car. However, the dealer maintenance records seemed to indicate that the bearing had failed and then the upgrade work was done. To me that is a big red flag on a car. Comments?

No kidding it's a red flag. You could always sell your 72T and buy an 09-2010 outright ;-)

Are you joking? My buddy is the luckiest guy on earth. Porsche has paid for (2) complete replacement engines on his car. Most people with ISB failures are left with a 3k lb. paper weight that isn't worth fixing and their dick in their hand. :rolleyes:

Also, I did a very complete top-end job on my former 911SC that included Carrera tensioners, (completely unnecessary except for resale to the lemmings who believe everything on the web), 24 new studs, heads completely redone by Competition Engineering, (the best and most expensive), a list of "while you were in theres" as long as your arm, split case and did main bearings, and on and on and on...

It cost me about $3500 DIY with a lot of help from this board and that included $1400 to CE for heads. How you can compare this to a $15-20k long block from PCNA is beyond me. A failed ISB does not have a DIY solution, other than R&Ring the engine, I guess.

The design failure of that engine is what it is. Would I still own one? Yes, and I have. But I'm not in some fairyland about the problem. :cool:

C'mon Denis, you're smarter than that. Maybe 1 in 10 guys on this BBS would undertake an engine rebuild as a DIY. For everyone else a top end is close to $10k and a full rebuild closer to $20k with P&Cs. Comparing apples to apples, a good DIY mechanic could rebuild a good M96 core for the same or less. Or just swap in a good used engine for $10k or so.

I agree that the air cooled motors are rarely totally trashed. But don't pretend that it's cheap to rebuild one for the average person.

Isnt that the issue? Since the engine has as design flaw there really are no 'good' engines. Ff you mean one that doesnt need regular IMS bearing replacement you are out of luck.

You're probably right! In fact, it may even count as a positive aspect when searching out potential cars.

Who wouldn't like a 997 for low dollars? I'm always looking for a reasonably priced launch edition S until I can get a GT3 for the price I want

The failure rate of the later cars is very low. So much so that they were excluded from the class action suit.

Which are you referring to as "later cars"? Thx

The early 2005s were included in the lawsuit. Yes I know you have a friend that has experienced a failure in a later car, but one data point does not a sample size make. There weren't enough failures for the lawyers to include them in their lawsuit. Polls on Rennlist reflect this as well.

Apples to apples, you must mean M97 as well as M96 here... An aircooled engine in need of refurbishing to the tune mentioned above has likely done 100-200K miles or more. That's not the same apple as a 30K-miles (or whatever) 997 engine that just grenaded itself due to a defective bearing. Pre-emptively splitting a seemingly healthy M97 case is not financially comparable to any past aircooled defects. Swapping a "good" used engine simply resets the doomsday clock because unless it's an early design, they have the exact same issue of not having a replaceable bearing (unless you tear it down, $$$), see examples above of repeat failures.
Anyway, we're just going in circles... The facts are on the table and everybody gets to pick what they are comfortable with. Early 997 = easily upgraded bearing but hard to identify conclusively. Later M97 Gen I = take your chances (odds *are* good, but if it happens to you, it will sting to the tune of $20K+ realistically, and no guarantee it won't happen again). Gen 2 = no issues so far, but substantially rarer and more expensive.

It's kind of ironic that the red-headed step child (996) is becoming desirable again because it can be upgraded (bearing wise). But I still dislike the interior/exterior look, so the wait for 09s continues.

Actually the standard 997 had an M96 until they went to the 9A1 in the 997.2. The M97 was in the 987 and 997S. They are supposedly very similar internally including the improved IMS bearing design. The 9A1 has no IMS bearing to fail, but I believe it does have some issues with carbon build up in the DFI motors.

Here are engine models vs Porsche models, look at page 9 for the M96 in the 997.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93289189/Porsche_Engine_Codes_1952-2012.pdf

Did not know that... Agreed on DFI, jury's still out, but it sounds more promising ;-)

I just edited my post to clarify, the M96 was in the base 997.

Ah ok...Thx for clarifying, because I'd seen M97 #s in pictures on other threads so I was wondering.
AFAIK (lifted from another thread on Rennlist) :
"The M96 engine was in production between the years 1998 and 2008 and was used in base 997 (starting in 2005)
The M97 engine was in production between the years 2005 and 2008 and was used in S 997s only (just talking about 997 here)"

But if they are *all* M96s on the base 997, why then are some early ones upgradeable and later ones not, are there 2 versions of M96s then? (one with a bigger hole to reach out and extract the bearing? or is it the bearing itself that is less extractable?). What's the difference if they are the same case?

Go figure... this is giving me a headache. Ironically, the Brit mags are reporting a higher prevalence of bearing issues with S models than base (so M97 - again that goes against logic as you'd think the later engine would be better).

Another though: does anybody know of a good aftermarket insurance that covers grenading engines due to Intermediary shaft bearings (with a proven record?). Because at the end of the day, that might resolve the issue - pick up a much cheaper Gen I, add $3K of peace of mind for 3 years (by which time I have confidence LN or whoever will have a plan B)...

From what I've read the IMS bearing design is very similar between the late 2005 and on M96 and the M97 engines. I've never had one apart so I have no personal experience either way.

I just can't believe that Porsche sold an expensive German car for so many years with a proven, identifiable major design flaw that makes them all a ticking time bomb no matter how well you maintain them. I can't think of ANY other vehicle with a similar issue, other than the early Ford 6.0 Powerstroke diesel.

As to the actual numbers and likelihood, my non scientific sampling says it happens a lot. :cool:

I also think that my focus has switched to base model early 997s. They will prob get to be the more expensive used cars once people find out it's a better car. :cool:

Less IMS chatter , more cheap cars please. :)

Actually it's nice to see some factual info on this issue. Without any drama.

No kidding, good thread. If you can stomach the potential issues there are deals to be had.

So an early 2005 997S cannot get the ISB update without splitting the case, only the base 997?

What's also amazing to me is that Porsche can't tell you which case the engine has provided the VIN. You've got to dive in with an approximate $2,500 budget and an unwilling-to-cooperate speeder just to find out if you even can replace the bearing in a moderately painful way vs the totally impractical way.

This thread turned me off to 997 base models. :(

Maybe I will make a good buck some time and get a GT3 or TT. Unfortunately, with others having the same base model turn off, I am certain the values will stay up or rise. I think the push from the air cooled cars is making it into the waterpumpers and people are looking for the best ones to jump on.

G

Any Mitsubishi car with the 4G63 engine prior to MY95 or so. The infamous "crankwalk" engine which has been similarly demonized by the internet for being a time bomb. And much like the M9x engines, the failure rate is MUCH lower than the internet would have you believe.

Me too. The last manual GT3s, the last manual Turbos, the last of the Mezger engines... I'll be surprised if they ever drop in price.

1990s BMW M60 V8 with Nikasil cylinder walls. Our higher sulfur content gas would literally eat the cylinder walls until they no longer made compression.

It seems like 997 base prices are coming within $7K of 987 prices as that market seems to be heating up.