I'm Obsessed with MotoGP

[Arthropraxis]

Originally Posted by sand_man

So if we have MM colluding (strong word, I know) with Jorge, which Rossi cronies can we expect to get in the way of MM/Jorge? Iannone? Petrucci? I know these aren't always front runners, but could still make it difficult.

I don't think MM cares about Jorge, he just doesn't want Rossi to win the championship. He has been pissed since he wrecked on Rossi's rear tire in Argentina (IIRC) and his championship hopes were shot. If you look back at recent races, he gets in front of Rossi to slow him down. Once the rider behind gets in a tangle with Rossi he clears off. Look at the last race. MM had the pace to catch Jorge but he held back for a while slowing Rossi down and allowing the Ducati rider to get back in the fight, then chased down Jorge to win the race.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

Assuming Rossi starts from the back, it would be interesting to see if anyone moves out of his way off the line. Still should be a pretty interesting end to a fantastic season, albeit different from the wire battle I was hoping for.

Respectfully disagree with it being interesting. Unless Rossi can perform a miracle all Lorenzo needs to do is finish.

[Flieger]

Well it's not as bad as I thought. When I heard a 3 point penalty I thought they took away 3 championship points.

46 has come from a couple rows back before, and I don't think it will be too much of an issue getting up to that point pretty quickly.

[Hydrocket]

Originally Posted by sand_man

So if we have MM colluding (strong word, I know) with Jorge, which Rossi cronies can we expect to get in the way of MM/Jorge? Iannone? Petrucci? I know these aren't always front runners, but could still make it difficult.

People forget (or don't know) about the Spanish angle. MotoGP is a Spanish championship. The head office of MotoGP (Dorna) is in Spain. All things being equal, if MM can't win the title, he'd like a fellow country man to win it. In this case Lorenzo. There's no question MM would help Lorenzo as best he could to win the title. There's a reason Rossi and others have accused MM of helping Lorenzo. Likely because it is happening. There has been other tomfoolery in MotoGP before with links to BS happening in Spain.

Team Repsol's Dany Pedrosa's manager, Alberto Puig, apparently always had Dorna's ear. His office was even in the SAME building as Dorna! What do Repsol, Pedrosa, Puig and Dorna all have in common? Yep...based in Spain.

[cheeze]

Just watched the race in full. Sweet jeebus those were some intense laps before the crash. I am reminded of Zenidine Zidane (perhaps the greatest of soccer names) in the WC Final in 06. A high stakes game with someone taunting and provoking another until they snap.

Rules are rules, but I think it's unrealistic to poke and prod and demand no reaction.

I'm not the biggest Rossi fanboy but I actually like it when riders, athletes, PEOPLE struggle with the immense pressure they're under, self inflicted or external. Makes their achievements a lot more understandable and gives a reference point to what exactly they were able to accomplish.

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by cheeze

..Sweet jeebus those were some intense laps before the crash...

I agree. And I suspect that if Rossi and Marquez could have just continued their heated battle without the antics (I know Jorge was riding away), that Marc would have likely done himself in. I think he would have cracked and Rossi could have ridden away clean. Oh well; woulda' coulda', shoulda'! I hope Rossi agrees to race and does his best to play his dealt hand!

I'm not good at this "new math", where do Jorge and Rossi both have to finish for Rossi to claim the championship? And if by some chance it ends in a tie, Jorge would win due to the number of outright victories?

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

I cannot begin to describe the awesomeness!

[sand_man]

I don't know if these guys have to attend a riders' meeting/briefing before each race (similar to what you see in F1), but I bet before the Valencia start, all the riders will be read the riot act, that antics will not be tolerated and penalty points will be dealt. As Javadog mentioned, penalty points remain on a rider's license for a full calendar year.

I think anyone "helping" will need to do so discreetly, hard to do at over 200MPH!

[sand_man]

Saw this:

[javadog]

Originally Posted by sand_man

I'm not good at this "new math", where do Jorge and Rossi both have to finish for Rossi to claim the championship? And if by some chance it ends in a tie, Jorge would win due to the number of outright victories?

Rossi has a 7 point lead, 312 to 305. Lorenzo has two more wins, 6 to 4. So, Lorenzo has to score 7 points more than Rossi at Valencia, to win the title. If he scores 6 or less more than Rossi, Rossi wins.

1st place = 25 points
2nd place = 20 points
3rd place = 16 points
4th place = 13 points
5th place = 11 points
6th place = 10 points
7th place = 9 points
8th place = 8 points
9th place = 7 points
10th place = 6 points
11th place = 5 points
12th place = 4 points
13th place = 3 points
14th place = 2 points
15th place = 1 point

All that Rossi has to do is finish directly behind Jorge. Jorge has to have at least one rider between him and Rossi, no matter where he finishes. If he doesn't finish first or second, he'll need more than one rider in between him and Rossi.

Rossi wins if:

Lorenzo 1st, Rossi 2nd
Lorenzo 2nd, Rossi 3rd
Lorenzo 3rd, Rossi 6th
Lorenzo 4th, Rossi 9th

Etc.

The only three guys with a realistic shot at the win are all Spanish, racing the last race in Spain. Each of the three has a win there in the last three years. Rossi's last win there was in 2004. It will be interesting to see how hard the Honda guys race Lorenzo. If they elect to go for the win and get ahead of Lorenzo, Vale has a pretty good chance. If Lorenzo finds the pace to run away from the Hondas, or if they don't push him, Vale hasn't got a prayer. Right now, the weather is expected to be mostly sunny for the race weekend.

JR

[javadog]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

You don't think there are team orders when crucial championship points are at stake, just like in F1? I wouldn't see that as being much different. It would be pretty wrong for Nicky to hold him up if he is 3-4 seconds off Rossi's pace.

Nicky is a friend of Vale, so don't expect him to hold Vale up. Plus, he's a fair rider, so he wouldn't do it anyway.

Yamaha has won both titles this year, so that's not in doubt. It may come down to personal grudges more than anything.

JR

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

You don't think there are team orders when crucial championship points are at stake, just like in F1?

True. In all honesty, I had not considered that.

[motion]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Tks for the correction. And no I'm not gay.

Apologies.... I believed him in the post race interview, but turns out here is the real reason:

https://www.facebook.com/JurcekDolenc/videos/10207890160601658/

[javadog]

Originally Posted by peteremsley

Wasn't suggesting anything about Nicky, just an example of someone that will be in front of him and most likely far off the pace.

Well, Nicky has ridden a Honda all of his career, so.... he's as much a Honda man as anybody on the grid. He's unique, in that Honda pays a chunk of his salary, directly...

[cheeze]

Originally Posted by javadog

Well, Nicky has ridden a Honda all of his career, so.... he's as much a Honda man as anybody on the grid. He's unique, in that Honda pays a chunk of his salary, directly...

I thought he was a Ducati for a season or 2.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by cheeze

I thought he was a Ducati for a season or 2.

After Vale Joined Ducati and couldn't do anything with their bike, Dorna officially granted permission to all of the post-Stoner Ducati riders to omit any Ducati years from their official resume.

Thus, our Nick has been a Honda rider his whole career.



JR

[javadog]

I've been pondering the continued reaction to last week's incident and I'm finding it unusual that people are still coming out against Rossi. Forgetting partisan fans of one or the other rider, I find it difficult to not find fault with both riders and write it off as a racing incident.

Consider...

What's worse, the intent, or the effect? And, was it the line that Vale took the grievous offense, or the fact that a crash was caused? Did Vale cause the crash, did Marc cause the crash, or was it just a fluke?

If the intent was the issue, you'd have to argue that Vale intended to take Marc out, which I think few people would agree with. You could see he was quite surprised to see Marc on the ground. If the effect was the worst thing, then you'd expect Crutchlow to get sanctioned for taking out Dovi. Nobody is blowing up the airwaves about that.

So, to the question of line choice... There's no actual rule against riding whatever line you choose, so long as you are not weaving around in front of a guy, or pulling abruptly in front of him to block him as he motors by. Riders take all sorts of lines. They take defensive lines coming into corners to prevent a pass. The run up the inside of another rider into a corner, forcing both riders to run wide, in what is called a block pass. They all run wider lines in the rain, as the normal line usually has less grip. Vale didn't run Marc off of the track; there were a couple bike widths available to him to the left. So, why is this transgression so much worse than any of the other "alternate" lines that happen every race weekend. And, if race control agreed that Marc was ****ing with Rossi, why was his dirty riding less of a transgression? Simply because Vale didn't fall off? Let there be no doubt that Marc was ****ing with Vale; what's visible on the TV screen is far less obvious than what Rossi experienced up close and personal. We may have doubts, since it is hard for us to watch 10 things at once, but he will have none. And Marc does not have the character to admit what he was doing.

The official wording was "Deliberately running wide in a corner in order to try and force another rider off line." That happens in every block pass. Why the distinction here? Is it because of the crash? Does "who hit who?" factor into that? I'd certainly suggest that if Vale had run into Marc, that would be bad. But if Marc chose to hit Vale? That's Vale's fault? What if everybody agrees that the result of the contact, the actual precipitating factor in the crash, was a fluke and neither rider thought something like that would happen? If they did it again, would either rider go down? Doubtful.

Read more: Race Direction explain Rossi's Sepang clash penalty - Motorcycle racing news: Moto GP - Visordown


Marc seemed to make the choice to run into Rossi, rather than stay left, or trail the brakes. Why? No blame to be apportioned there? There are those that say that Vale moved left again, into Marc. I say no, he was back on the gas and looking ahead, when Marc leaned into him. Nonetheless, how many times have you seen riders banging fairings intentionally, often with a lot more force? I can think of dozens of instances, by all of the top riders. No penalties there, either. Why not?

I'm starting to think that what initially appeared to be the case, namely that Rossi had booted Marc off his bike, is what we are dealing with here. It's a perception thing. Most people watched the race once, got the impression that Rossi did something bad, and that was the end of that. Going back over it, you get a different impression, but how many have done that? How much did that factor into the penalty? I'd love to learn who the Race Direction reps were that weekend.

Don't get the idea that I wear a yellow wig. I actually have $10 riding on Jorge, for the title.

JR

[sand_man]

As usual, java, well written and well thought. Not that anyone is asking me to, but I don’t intend to edit my previous posts (pages back), which expressed my original disappointment with Rossi. My first reaction is not always how I’ll finally come to feel about a particular subject. Thus, after marinating on the facts, watching the footage from many angles, and listening to informed enthusiasts like java and motion (and others), I’ve come to conclude that Marc is dirty and forced his own error/crash! And the three points against Rossi is beyond harsh. No doubt, these are men of passion. No doubt Marc has revealed himself the antagonist. Unfortunately Rossi got pulled into it.

Thinking out loud here, but maybe the board which reviewed the incident and the subsequent appeals considered that Marc exacted his own penalty with his crash DNF. They let Rossi keep the 3rd place (they didn’t black flag him) and set fourth to put him at a major disadvantage for Valencia for any part he might have played in Sepang. And in doing so, have all but given it to Jorge, though there’s always hope.

I’m also surprised at how nonchalant Marc appeared about the crash. I don’t remember seeing any middle fingers, or Spanish curse gestures, or throwing hands up, or standing there to wait for Rossi to come around again so he could express his anger. He just seemed to accept it. Not overly animated. Seems suspicious.

[deanp]

The video link posted a page or so back shows Rossi look directly at MM for an extended period of time and slow to the outside of corner - not like a block pass, not like a defensive line, not looking through the corner. It's blatant. I enjoy Julian Ryder's columns on Superbike Planet - this is his take on it, and he was at the track. (I added the bold emphasis):

"On the third lap at Turn 4 Marquez's Honda did one of those vicious snaps that has put him on the floor several times. This time it put him right off the edge of the track and allowed Lorenzo to go past and gap him. There were other little bits of misbehavior but this was the one that detached Marc from Pedrosa and Lorenzo and put him into the clutches of Valentino Rossi.

From number 46's point of view, he must have imagined his prediction of Thursday coming true. He saw Marquez reversing towards him, favoring Lorenzo by allowing him to escape. There followed three laps, well, nearly four, of frenzied passing and re-passing. It was hard but mostly fair. Check the lap times: from 2:01.360 to 2:02.107 by Marc. No one can call that slow.

On lap seven, going into the right-hander before the back straight, Rossi looked to his left several times and (judging by the on-board sound) on a closed throttle deliberately ran wide, taking Marc out to the edge of the track. Marc leaned into Valentino, Vale' stuck a knee out to prevent contact and then snagged Marc's handlebar. Down he went. Rossi's leg was wrenched back and his foot came off the rest, but he did not kick out at the Honda.

It looked bad. Race Direction thought so and gave Rossi three points on his license, and as he already has one that took him to four and a compulsory start from the back of the grid at Valencia.

This are the bare facts as I see them. Race Direction said that they judged that Valentino did not want to knock Marc off his bike but his actions were culpable. They also decided that Marc had contributed in some way with his riding. A deliberate attempt to knock a rider off his bike (Hanika on Bagnaia in Moto3 at Brno) would have attracted five points.

I've just got back from both riders' press conferences. I'll tell you about that after I've got home (got to get a plane) but suffice it to say, any mutual respect they had has evaporated. Both are completely sure they are in the right. Marquez is coldly furious; Valentino is combative but his attitude defensive.

For what it's worth, I think Race Direction erred on the lenient side but got it about right. Valentino made a massive error of judgement. And I think he talked himself into it on Thursday."

Even Burgess is questioning the judgement:

"(That's) not the Valentino Rossi I know. He can't expect Dani and Marc to roll around in third and fourth while he and Lorenzo get on with it."

Burgess theorized that Rossi's behavior at Sepang was probably due to the stress of the 2015 season and other factors. "Long season leading the championship, 36 years old, (the) pressure is getting to him a little. Shows the older we get doesn't make us smarter," Burgess stated.

[javadog]

I read Julian's piece the other day. I'm sure it was based on what we all saw that day. I'm looking forward to reading his followup piece, if he ever does one, to see if he's gone back and studied the videos any more.

The Burgess comment is what prompted me to write what I did above.

JR