We're a 2 Volt family now

[Jim Richards]

Southern Carolina - Site Location and Economic Development, South Carolina

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[Jim Richards]

The point is, federal, state, and local governments use financial incentives to encourage a desired behavior. Using other people's money. For job growth, environmental preservation, maintaining the historical or cultural aspects of their community, aiding the poor, etc. Right or wrong, it's what all of the governments do. Corporations relocate and disrupt the lives of their employees for these tax incentives. Are they evil? By making a choice that has the benefit of tax incentives, is Patrick doing anything a CEO wouldn't do? Hell, his purchases are helping the US economy. What the **** are you doing to help?

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Wow. No shame - so the rest of us get to help you buy your "salmon powered" car. That's what we call them up here in the PNW, the land of hydro-electric power (that we sell in abundance to California). Yup, keep it up - your "green" cars mean a greater burden on our already over taxed power grid, which will inevitably lead to more dams on our rivers.

All power comes from somewhere. There is no free lunch. There is a reason these cars are so heavily subsidized (by the rest of us) - their "power model" does not work. If it did, if it were truly viable - no subsidies would be necessary.

Congratulations - another liberal boondoggle the rest of us clearer thinking people get to support.

Like you've never received a tax deduction. Ever deducted mortgage interest? Why did you accept that handout from others, to help pay for your house?

[techweenie]

I have to laugh at people who whine about'subsidies for green vehicles (and solar panels, and...). Because we know everything 'green' has to be 100% clean while we ignore the total cost of oil in terms of government subsidies, health, environmental damage, wars, etc.

I'm happy to average 123 MPG and 3 Porsche enthusiast friends have also bought or leased Volts in the past 8 months.

[RF5BPilot]

What a bunch of f'king tripe about a car choice.

If you like the car and the pot is sweetened by incentives (or not)--get it!

Hard to imagine a greater line of stupid, mindless, pointless moaning.

Hope you enjoy your Volt. Few families get more than one hybrid or EV.

[Steve Carlton]

Please clear all auto purchases with us first so we can judge them before a problem develops.

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by RF5BPilot

What a bunch of f'king tripe about a car choice.

If you like the car and the pot is sweetened by incentives (or not)--get it!

Hard to imagine a greater line of stupid, mindless, pointless moaning.

Hope you enjoy your Volt. Few families get more than one hybrid or EV.

This^^^.

Jeez...the guy came to a car forum after buying a new car and you guys make it into a political hailstorm. How about this....I drive a Lexus, in part as the result of a car allowance provided by my employer. I work for a medical equipment company. They pay for my gas too. So, every time I drive my car, I make the cost of healthcare go up. Should I refuse this employee benefit?

Do any of you (Jeff) receive any employee benefits? Nice salary, partially funded health insurance, 401k contribution, car allowance, life insurance, etc? If the answer is yes to any of them, you are raising the cost of goods and services your company provides making them less affordable for working middle-class people. You should be ashamed! What were you thinking?

No need to answer but jeez...cut the guy some slack. He bought two American cars...that's more than I've done. I own three Japanese cars (2 Hondas and a Toyota), one German car (my Porsche) and a 1999 Jeep Cherokee.

Congrats on the new Volt Patrick. Might consider same when we're ready for another car.

[Jeff Higgins]

There are a couple of points all of you are missing in your (entirely predictable) defenses of this technology.

First, is that no one would buy them if they had to pay the "real" purchase price, and had to pay to "refuel" them at the "free" charging stations. These are, in fact, $300,000 cars. No one is that dedicated to this cause. I guess it's easy to be all pompous and "green", as long as it's on other's "green".

Second, there is no free lunch. All power comes from somewhere. There is much discussion up here in the PNW, the land of extremely cheap hydro-electric power, about "what if?" What if every Seattle liberal started driving electric cars? These are the same folks who celebrated removing one of the dams from our Columbia river system a few years ago. How would they feel about now having to build more? What "success" looks like in this area, as far as the push to electric vehicles goes, is a far more damaging impact on our environment that current gas vehicle technology represents.

I guess we have come to expect this from our liberal friends, however. They never have shown a great deal of vision or understanding with regards to complex issues. Theirs is a more child-like, innocent, less intellectual approach. If it makes you feel good and all of the other children laud you for it, it must be good. Especially if your parents are paying for it.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by RedBaron

I'm sure in the duration of his life he has paid 10k in taxes... you guys aren't covering him. He is just gaming the system a little bit; i'm sure wealthy businessmen do the same. How many of you have kids that go to school and have Pell Grants?

Your logic is warped even by socialist standards. Tax dollars spent subsidizing a overpriced car could have been spent helping poor people that have no food. Instead the money he put into the system to help the less fortunate has been put back in the pocket of rich. Now if we really want to blow your logic apart lets look at reducing the national debt which would equate to more money to pay for social services.
I kid was home schooled but I still pay school taxes and no one in my family has taken any grant money. You owe me a check for the money I paid into the system. PM me and I'll send you my address.

[1990C4S]

I think if most people were aware of the subsidies, grants, and gifts that auto manufacturers (and suppliers) received they would find they couldn't drive any car because the collective guilt would kill them.

I guess your best bet is to buy an import.

Subsidies are rampant now, so be it a tax cut, a kick-back, cheap electricity, reduced local taxes, or free land, they ALL suck at the public teat.

[Steve Carlton]

I miss the gas guzzler tax. An opportunity to put something back.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

There are a couple of points all of you are missing in your (entirely predictable) defenses of this technology.

It's only predictable because you don't pay attention to what's being said and instead listen to your own prejudices and stereotypes.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

First, is that no one would buy them if they had to pay the "real" purchase price, and had to pay to "refuel" them at the "free" charging stations.

But I posted what charging costs me and it wasn't free. I don't think you are reading this thread, you are just venting about your hatred of EVs.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

These are, in fact, $300,000 cars. No one is that dedicated to this cause. I guess it's easy to be all pompous and "green", as long as it's on other's "green".

The only person in this thread mentioning "green" with respect to a Volt is you. That's a straw man created by you. The people here who actually own and drive them don't mention "green" at all.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Second, there is no free lunch. All power comes from somewhere. There is much discussion up here in the PNW, the land of extremely cheap hydro-electric power, about "what if?" What if every Seattle liberal started driving electric cars?

EVs have limited range and limited utility. They are only appropriate for a limited segment of the market. They make huge sense for some people and no sense at all for others. Spreading the fear that every liberal is going to drive one is another straw man. It isn't going to happen.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I guess we have come to expect this from our liberal friends, however.

Yes, well I'm sure you have, since you see what is fundamentally an economic decision through your lens of partisan politics.

The Volt is an amazing car. Congrats on your second!

[wdfifteen]

Thanks Mark. Glad you are enjoying yours. I took the air dam off the new one today because it really scrapes on the entry to the garage. My wife's car may not leave the county for weeks and weeks, so the 1.5 hit on highway mpg from the missing air dam won't affect her.
I've owned my Volt about 8 weeks now and I've remembered to close the charge door maybe 3 or 4 times. It should close automatically.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I'm curious how these perform in crappy climates where heat is needed regularly. Electric resistance heaters are pretty inefficient and suck a LOT of juice, and I don't know any way a true EV could make heat otherwise since there's no internal combustion engine (as with a hybrid) to scavenge heat from. Warm-up time could seriously cut into range I'd think, not to mention cold weather wreaks havoc on battery performance / capacity and charging times. I'd be curious to see how these REALLY hold up over a couple of winters (although personally I'm hoping to be out of this climate soon so my curiousity is largely academic - seeing if these sorts of EVs are really up for prime time or just a publicity stunt that works sometimes, for some, under very ideal conditions).

Can a Volt (or Tesla Model S) REALLY last an hour or two in hellish stop-go commuter traffic in the middle of winter when it's 10 degrees outside and you absolutely need to run heat, defrost and lights / wipers to avoid getting killed? Can it be counted on to be reliable enough to get you through blizzard conditions during an emergency without risk of literally freezing to death in your car when the heat goes out? These are real issues for some people and some of them live not that far away from here. I'm just wondering if they're "real" or if they need to be only kept around and used as a supplement to a conventional internal combustion type vehicle.

No way I'll ever buy another GM vehicle in all my days on this planet ever again. They lost me decades ago with their rattle-trap crap from the 70s and 80s and I don't care how good the new stuff is - I'll never personally give them another dime, but I'm curious how the technology is evolving. Add to that the EV1 nonsense, the "bailout", etc. and I'll just leave it at "cool technology - curious about its practicality, not for me".

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I'm curious how these perform in crappy climates where heat is needed regularly. Electric resistance heaters are pretty inefficient and suck a LOT of juice, and I don't know any way a true EV could make heat otherwise since there's no internal combustion engine (as with a hybrid) to scavenge heat from. Warm-up time could seriously cut into range I'd think, not to mention cold weather wreaks havoc on battery performance / capacity and charging times. I'd be curious to see how these REALLY hold up over a couple of winters (although personally I'm hoping to be out of this climate soon so my curiousity is largely academic - seeing if these sorts of EVs are really up for prime time or just a publicity stunt that works sometimes, for some, under very ideal conditions).

Can a Volt (or Tesla Model S) REALLY last an hour or two in hellish stop-go commuter traffic in the middle of winter when it's 10 degrees outside and you absolutely need to run heat, defrost and lights / wipers to avoid getting killed? Can it be counted on to be reliable enough to get you through blizzard conditions during an emergency without risk of literally freezing to death in your car when the heat goes out? These are real issues for some people and some of them live not that far away from here. I'm just wondering if they're "real" or if they need to be only kept around and used as a supplement to a conventional internal combustion type vehicle.

No way I'll ever buy another GM vehicle in all my days on this planet ever again. They lost me decades ago with their rattle-trap crap from the 70s and 80s and I don't care how good the new stuff is - I'll never personally give them another dime, but I'm curious how the technology is evolving. Add to that the EV1 nonsense, the "bailout", etc. and I'll just leave it at "cool technology - curious about its practicality, not for me".

I can't speak for winter traffic jams for a few months yet, however I was in a three hour traffic jam between Colorado Springs, and Denver a few weekends ago and I was around several Volts.

I was in my RV just enjoying the AC in the 100+ degree weather, and they appeared to be doing the same. Probably not a charging station for the 75 miles of road between the two points.

I also would never even remotely consider a GM product.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Can a Volt (or Tesla Model S) REALLY last an hour or two in hellish stop-go commuter traffic in the middle of winter when it's 10 degrees outside and you absolutely need to run heat, defrost and lights / wipers to avoid getting killed? Can it be counted on to be reliable enough to get you through blizzard conditions during an emergency without risk of literally freezing to death in your car when the heat goes out? These are real issues for some people and some of them live not that far away from here. I'm just wondering if they're "real" or if they need to be only kept around and used as a supplement to a conventional internal combustion type vehicle.

This question doesn't apply to the Volt since it has an internal combustion engine. GM engineers made huge power reserves on these cars for cold weather use and also to offset battery degradation over time. Electrically heating air does use a lot of juice, but if you invoke the gas engine (easy to do on demand), the coolant goes through a heater core just like a "normal" car.

They spent 5 years developing the Volt hybrid system, and it's pretty impressive to me. I just turned 23K miles and have had no issues.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

Try to see it through someone else's perspective.

If you care.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

It all went right over your head John. You missed every point.

You are just incapable of seeing someone else's point of view at all. It is really quite astonishing.

[wdfifteen]

"Can a Volt (or Tesla Model S) REALLY last an hour or two in hellish stop-go commuter traffic in the middle of winter when it's 10 degrees outside and you absolutely need to run heat, defrost and lights / wipers to avoid getting killed? Can it be counted on to be reliable enough to get you through blizzard conditions during an emergency without risk of literally freezing to death in your car when the heat goes out? These are real issues for some people and some of them live not that far away from here. I'm just wondering if they're "real" or if they need to be only kept around and used as a supplement to a conventional internal combustion type vehicle."

I can't speak for a Tesla, but a Volt would be better under those conditions than an IC car. An IC is sitting there using it's fuel reserves to keep a useless engine running. A Volt only uses as much energy as is required to run the heat, AC, or wipers. The AC when running constantly uses 2 kw. There are 10 kwh available from a full battery. So the AC would run continuously for 5 hours, or more reasonably it would cycle on and off for many more hours. Then the ICE would fire up and the same system would be gas-powered, as in a conventional car. Same with the heater.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by techweenie

This question doesn't apply to the Volt since it has an internal combustion engine. GM engineers made huge power reserves on these cars for cold weather use and also to offset battery degradation over time. Electrically heating air does use a lot of juice, but if you invoke the gas engine (easy to do on demand), the coolant goes through a heater core just like a "normal" car.

They spent 5 years developing the Volt hybrid system, and it's pretty impressive to me. I just turned 23K miles and have had no issues.

Thanks - that makes a lot more sense to me than relying on strictly electric resistance. Sort of like Janitrol units in some twin-engine airplanes I've flown (it's a pain and a lot of extra weight to run ducted hot air from wing mounted engines to the cabin so they install what effectively is a small jet engine that only exists to create cabin air heat and in a few cases, emergency reserve electricity).

It sounds like these would actually hold their own in bad conditions which is pretty nice to know. Thanks.