Ever been dead?

[Crowbob]

So getting the juice for surgery doesn't seem to be unpleasant for most people. This brings to me a question. Apparently there is a big controversy over lethal injections being cruel and unusual punishment. Not to confuse the appropriateness of death sentences, I'm asking about the method.

Is the controversy over the kinds of chemicals used? Is it reasonable that some lethal injections are cruel?

[VINMAN]

What's being discussed hereis "clinical death".
True death, " biological death ", ain't no coming back from!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

So getting the juice for surgery doesn't seem to be unpleasant for most people. This brings to me a question. Apparently there is a big controversy over lethal injections being cruel and unusual punishment. Not to confuse the appropriateness of death sentences, I'm asking about the method.

Is the controversy over the kinds of chemicals used? Is it reasonable that some lethal injections are cruel?

We're perfectly capable of doing lethal injection humanely. We do it with animals (veterinary euthanasia) all the time. The only issue that is of concern is that the agent typically used (phenobarbital) can create a "burning" sensation before it takes hold and renders the recipient unconscious and before it stops the heart. A lot of vets use a mild sedative first to help alleviate this and / or mix the phenobarbital with xylocaine / lidocaine or a similar drug to help things go easier and make it less unpleasant for both the animal and the owner.

Most of the frenzy about "inhumane" lethal injections are blown way out of proportion by grandstanding lawyers being paid to do so. The facts (when you research it a bit) are that we have the capability to euthanize people or animals humanely, painlessly and with an almost 100% guaranteed success rate - until the legal system gets hold of it and makes a clusterfk out of it. Medically it's a pretty straightforward and simple procedure.

I've been told that execution by firing squad is actually relatively painless if done correctly. The BP crashes and the person goes almost instantly unconscious before bleeding out afterwards. It's messy though (obviously). Same with the guillotine - actually invented to provide a painless, dignified method of execution for French aristocrats.

Given how brutal most convicted killers on death row are and how merciless they were to their victims, I'm not too terribly concerned myself with a brief instant of momentary discomfort during execution. Sad that we make such a big deal about it (thanks once again to lawyers convoluting the entire thing)

[pavulon]

Your philosophy isn't the issue. It's your needing to throw it onto others.

Originally Posted by Crowbob

Yeah. Like that. Quit running away and help me understand how or why my philosophy is a problem for you?

[Crowbob]

Well,

I have no need to throw my philosophy onto anyone else and never have, pav. You pointed out by direct reference to my post that it was somehow an example of me throwing my philosophy onto somebody else. Your interpretation of that post as proselytizing is a stretch. And, I might add, your derision for my belief, which approaches condescension, implies an insecurity with whatever belief you may hold. The solution to whatever problem you may have with my belief is something you need to resolve for yourself.

In the meantime, whilst you struggle with you own beliefs, I remain comfortable with mine. Good luck to you, sir. I hope you find peace.

[Mark Henry]

I saw the dead in the 90's...does that count?

[pavulon]

Great. Be comfortable. But don't try picking a fight because someone may not agree with you. This is the road to fanaticism and has given the world a lot of ****.

Failing to consider other possibilities isn't a conversation. It's an argument. I get enough of that at work so this is as far as I'm willing to go with you on your belief.

Originally Posted by Crowbob

Well,

I have no need to throw my philosophy onto anyone else and never have, pav. You pointed out by direct reference to my post that it was somehow an example of me throwing my philosophy onto somebody else. Your interpretation of that post as proselytizing is a stretch. And, I might add, your derision for my belief, which approaches condescension, implies an insecurity with whatever belief you may hold. The solution to whatever problem you may have with my belief is something you need to resolve for yourself.

In the meantime, whilst you struggle with you own beliefs, I remain comfortable with mine. Good luck to you, sir. I hope you find peace.

[NY65912]

Not dead but I did have the fading away feeling, the dying feeling. The day after my spinal surgery in '94 the nurse got me to sit up. I threw 5 blood clots to my lungs. I turned blue/gray, terrific chest pain and a feeling of leaving life. Tunnel vision, cold, clammy, overwhelming sick feeling, etc. Then the feeling of shutting off came over me, an uncontrolable slipping away feeling, know I was dying. Then the crash team came in and shot me full of Heparin and Ativan and things got better, the "shock" went away. Getting O2 sure beats not getting O2 into your body. I believe that when the end comes, it comes. Not a damn thing you can do. Part of me thinks that you shut off, like when you are under anesthesia, nothing, really nothing. But we will never know until we get to that place. Maybe we regenerate and regain awareness in another form, or maybe not, we just seize to exist, we are erased from the universe.

[bivenator]

Originally Posted by pavulon

Great. Be comfortable. But don't try picking a fight because someone may not agree with you. This is the road to fanaticism and has given the world a lot of ****.

Failing to consider other possibilities isn't a conversation. It's an argument. I get enough of that at work so this is as far as I'm willing to go with you on your belief.

I think you took this to DEFCOM 5 for no apparent reason. Maybe god is talking to your conscience.

I was reflecting on this thread as I was mowing the grass, I get lots of thinking done while mowing. It occurred to me that it is possible that the blackness and non threatening feeling was actually heaven. The relief of worldly suffering.

Another view could be is that the blackness was hell and you will not be receiving the 72 virgins in heaven as promised and only got stuck in the darkness.

Either way the experience that you had as it relates to god existance is as reliable as the Soviet astronauts who proclaimed god did not exist because they could not see him as they approached outer space.

Food for thought.

Before anyone starts accusing me of proselytizing, nothing could be further from the intent of my post.

Agnostic.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by NY65912

we are erased from the universe.

We are never erased. We are recycled. The atoms that make us have been present in the universe from the beginning of time and our atoms will be there till the end of time, just in another form.

[NY65912]

Ahh, as Carl Sagen said, " we are all stardust". Yes, I agree. I guess I should have said, perhaps our consciousness is erased from the universe.

[reverie]

OBEs (out-of-body experiences) are an interesting phenomenon. They are quite common among meditation practitioners. I've had a couple of OBEs while meditating. In my experiences, I'll be meditating like normal, sitting on the couch and looking at a candle's flame, when suddenly I'm above my body... up by the ceiling, looking down at myself. I look around to see if I'm in a "spirit body" but I'm not. I have no body; I'm just a pinpoint of consciousness, and I have all of my personality and etc within that pinpoint of consciousness. There is no "silver thread" connecting me to my body, which is still sitting on the couch. So I figure this is the astral plane, right? and I go exploring by wishing to go down the hallway, and that's what happens, I go down the hallway. Then I decide that I want to be back in my body, and instantly I'm back in my body, looking at the candle, and the OBE is over.

So my consciousness didn't *need* my body. I think when we die, we survive without our bodies, and continue to be individuals somewhere else.

_

[pavulon]

CB effectively demanded that I "stop running away". I stated my stance and don't see DEFCOM 5 in there.

PARF is the place for arguments and posturing. I stay out of there for the most part and for good reason.

Originally Posted by bivenator

I think you took this to DEFCOM 5 for no apparent reason. Maybe god is talking to your conscience.