Guns - a topic from the 911 Board...

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

I agree with you on "Bowling for Columbine" It should be required viewing for every child in America as far as I'm concerned.

The problem with guns in this country in the mentality that goes along with it. The NRA isnt helping either. All I gotta say is look at Charlton Heston in the above mentioned movie. This is whats wrong with America.

[nostatic]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by island911

Are you just talking about cops, or military as well?

actually neither...talking about joe average citizen.

SUV's make people much braver/stupider than they would normally be.

Agreed.

Sportscars make people much braver/stupider than they would normally be.

Agreed

Surfboards make people much braver/stupider than they would normally be.

Definatley agree

What should be obvious at this point is there are any number of things that "make people much braver/stupider than they would normally be."

The questions then are:
do you take theses things away on the grounds of "braver/stupider"?
does it happen to an outragous degree?
do these devices cause more problems than they solve?

In the case of surfboards, they kill very few, and even then it is the user not an innocent bystander. Cars are more dangerous, but are deemed necessary for transportation (although I could talk about the years I commuted by bicycle and what I think about that topic, but that is another rant). When used in their intended manner, cars are largely safe. Guns on the other had, when used in their intended manner, cause grievous bodily injury.

If you own a gun, how many times have you used it, and how many times has it saved your life, or the life of another? Of course I know the probable response to that question is, "well, you never know but I'm prepared."

There is no real way to argue this one, other to admit that I'm wrong and all the gun fans are totally correct.

[Milu]

Originally posted by nostatic


If you own a gun, how many times have you used it, and how many times has it saved your life, or the life of another? Of course I know the probable response to that question is, "well, you never know but I'm prepared."

There is no real way to argue this one, other to admit that I'm wrong and all the gun fans are totally correct.

Used a gun in defense: twice

saved my life: four possibly five.

I've also found myself in situations where I needed a gun and didn't have one. Yes I lived to tell about it, but if I had to relive them I would choose to be armed.

Repeating myself Todd I think we are in agreement on one point:

Ultimately it's an emotional issue. I've never seen anyone change their position on gun issues because of a rational argument by the opposing view.

But repeating myself again:how would you answer or deal with the following:

Do you feel that the police are able to protect you on the streets or in your home? If not, what is your real world solution?

How will strict/stricter gun laws take guns away from the criminals?

A firearm is a great equaliser. If your aged grayhaired mother lived in an isolated house 30 minutes from the nearest law enforcement would both of you feel more comfortable if she owned and could competently use a firearm?

Given the choice I would choose freely armed citizens. The other option leaves only the criminals having guns and wipes out the reasoning behind the second amendment. (Is a non American allowed to use the second amendment argument? I think it is derived from the 1688 English bill of rights)

[tabs52]

Even before the Soviet Union fell the United States was producing 51% of all the military hardware in the World. That percentage has undoubtly gone up since then. So that means that every man woman and child in this country has benfited from the sale of death dealing instruments. (The USA military spends about 300 Billion a year alone.) Going back to WW1 the USA has been an arms merchant. So the people who are anti-gun in that sense are being hypocritical, cause a good part of our economy is generated by these sales. A good part of the wealth of the world has been transfered into the hand of the United States because it has been the arms merchant to the world. So we just don't live in a culture of violence we are the culture of violence......let's get real....... Did Michael Moorer tell U that in his film...


Second issue what about Nuclear weapons, do U feel safe with them around. When we were face to face with the Soviet should the USA just have said we're dismantling them. There isn't much difference from a nuke in the silo and a gun in the drawer simply because a thug is a thug whether it's a country or some scum bag out to rob U. Neither side if I recall used Nukes, it was called mutual deterence. Now this is a little obtuse as a anti-Gun Control arguement granted.

I heard Michael Moorer speak before....while I enjoyed his Roger and Me Movie about Robert Smith the CEO of GM and what a miserable bean counter he was. I just think Michael Moorer is a pimp for the Democratic party. Anything that doesn't promote Socialism in this country Michael is against.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Milu
Do you feel that the police are able to protect you on the streets or in your home? If not, what is your real world solution?

Yes, I feel that by-and-large the police are able to protect me. Knock on wood, during 41 years of my life I have never been in a situation where I wished I had a gun (other than scenarios that I willingly inserted myself into, and during those the last person I wanted to see was a cop).

How will strict/stricter gun laws take guns away from the criminals?

It's a numbers thing. Less guns available means less guns available. You stop the production and import of cheap handguns. You make severe penalties for using or possessing a gun. Of course none of this will really do anything until perceptions are changed. Among many, owning guns is "cool", and brings a source of power. Until you change that, you'll have a tough time with anything else.

A firearm is a great equaliser. If your aged grayhaired mother lived in an isolated house 30 minutes from the nearest law enforcement would both of you feel more comfortable if she owned and could competently use a firearm?

No, because in part I doubt the competency of my grandma or most other civilians. I'd be pretty upset if we're going to visit grandma and she mistakes us for burglars, shooting my son. Alternatively, a criminal breaks in and grandma *doesn't* pull the trigger, then said bad guy gets the gun. I don't like that scenario either. The problem is the pro-gun people envision the best-case scenario (grandma gets the gun and protects herself). The anti-gun people envision the worst-case scenario (criminal takes the gun and kills grandma, or grandma kills a family member, or grandchild finds the gun and accidently kills his sister). I think all scenarios are possible, but the most probably outcomes are in the "bad" camp.

I'm curious...what were the circumstances of your gun use? If used during military or police service that doesn't really count for this argument.

[nhurto]

If you own a gun, how many times have you used it, and how many times has it saved your life, or the life of another? Of course I know the probable response to that question is, "well, you never know but I'm prepared."

The reality of the situation is that a firearm in the house increases your chance of being wounded or killed by one. Having taught firearms safety courses and been the founder and President of a college gun club, I think that most of these deaths are caused by people not know what they are doing. Much like an inexperienced driver taking a 911 turbo out to play, a gun in an untrained hand is just asking for disaster. If people are going to keep a gun for self-defense or home protection, then they must take the responsibility to control access to that firearm (and the ammunition) as well as learn how to use it in the proper manner (including using the proper ammunition so as not to kill their neighbor or the child in the next room).

Unfortunatley, the pro-gun debate relies very heavily on people acting in both a responsible manner and employing a lot of common sense - both of which seem to escape many people's abilities. Fortunatley, of the 250 million guns in the United States, most are used in a lawful and safe manner. I only hope that we will end the polarized debate on whether guns should be availible or not, and get on to more meaningful debates as to how to deal the root causes of intentional and unintentional gun deaths. Something that escapes most public debates on the subject.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by tabs52
So the people who are anti-gun in that sense are being hypocritical, cause a good part of our economy is generated by these sales.

So by merely living in this country, I'm promoting arms sales? You do have the Taliban party line down, don't you? Clearly I am guilty and responsible for the death of millions in other countries.

If I was anti-gun but worked in the MIC you might have a point, but I don't, so your sweeping indictment is overblown. In fact, back in college I made a conscious decision to not choose physics as a career since the lionshare of the work at that time was in the arms industry.

I am not without guilt, but I don't feel much hypocrisy coming to play on this one.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

This is a country where thousands are killed every year by handguns, yet we ban artifical sweeteners because a rat died.

- George Carlin



4000 hungry children
Leave us per hour from starvation
While billions are spent on bombs
Creating death showers

-from "Boom" by System of a Down


I truly wonder sometimes why I chose not to stay in Europe and come home to L.A.

[tabs52]

If U have lived in California you have benfited from the sale of arms to the rest of the world. The great influx of people into California started in the the 1940's which was mainly due to the large demand for labor in the defense industry. Remember the guy who builds the weapon has to eat so the grocer makes a living as well...it's called the ripple effect. (the guy in the defense plant reads the newspaper and the defense plant puts want ads in the newspaper as well thus revenue to the LA Times comes from the MIC)....So even if U don't work for the MIC your lifestyle benfits from those $$$ flowing into the USA from other countries. And U thought it was computer chips.

Taliban Line hardly, that shows that U listen to the pablum you've been fed on the 7PM network news.

[island911]

Originally posted by nostatic
. . .
If you own a gun, how many times have you used it, and how many times has it saved your life, or the life of another? Of course I know the probable response to that question is, "well, you never know but I'm prepared."

There is no real way to argue this one, other to admit that I'm wrong and all the gun fans are totally correct.

On your first point, I think you should consider something like 95% or so, cops never even pull their guns out of the holster in their job. (per college crime major room-mate . . . I'm sure LA is different)
What ever the number, my point is, the presence of force deters countless illegal/bad actions.

When the citizens "carry concealed"; the big bad 275lb bully is then uncertain if the 120lb Texan woman is going to take him out in self defense.

The presence of deadly force gives everybody pause. Which is why many don’t like guns, and are against them. I think we can agree on that.
But, you can’t argue that it does not give pause to criminals. (mentally insane is anither topic)
Just because the news isn’t reporting all the instances of deterred criminals, doesn’t indicate its’ lack of existance. What fun is a news story that reads; Man was casing a shop for a robbery. He saw the box boy had a side-arm. He decided not to rob the store. Or, jogging woman was targeted for rape. Man gave up pursuit when woman started jogging with one hand in her fanny –pack.
Subtlety defused stories just don’t have the same pop. (pardon the pun)

On "gun fans" . ..THAT I am not. It's a pragmatic issue to me. Again, I believe the vast majority of people are good. This means I trust we are better off with the good people having deadly force, as it will keep at bay the idiots with bad intentions.
Cars, knives and fire, for examples, are all deadly weapons, and yet we trust even teens to use them properly.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by tabs52
If U have lived in California you have benfited from the sale of arms to the rest of the world. The great influx of people into California started in the the 1940's which was mainly due to the large demand for labor in the defense industry. Remember the guy who builds the weapon has to eat so the grocer makes a living as well...it's called the ripple effect. (the guy in the defense plant reads the newspaper and the defense plant puts want ads in the newspaper as well thus revenue to the LA Times comes from the MIC)....So even if U don't work for the MIC your lifestyle benfits from those $$$ flowing into the USA from other countries. And U thought it was computer chips.

Taliban Line hardly, that shows that U listen to the pablum you've been fed on the 7PM network news.

Tabs,

Im quite aware of how much arms sales have contributed to California's economy and myself personally. I used to work indirectly for the Department of Defense. I also live in El Segundo, CA! Boeing, Raytheon, Hughes, Northrop, TRW, and Grumman all have huge facilities here. I'm reminded of this every morning as i drive to work from the giant mural of all the aircraft ever built here painted on the side of the local Chevron station.

[nostatic]

hypocrisy generally implies active participation. I was born in California, and have continued to live here. I understand the state's economy pretty well, and in fact was supported in part by DOD grants during grad school. Yes, I have benefited by the presence of the MIC. That doesn't mean that I agree with it. What exactly do you suggest one does to avoid hypocrisy other than moving to another country? I exercise my democratic responsibility every year, and in the past have worked for candidates that espoused viewpoints I agreed with. Short of denouncing capitalism and moving to a tree, I don't see what you expect (other than flame bait).

Tabs, "U" are entertaining for awhile, but unfortunately I find your shelf life limited. I thought you'd be a better foil, but alas it seems I overestimated you. I know your opinion of your own wit and banter is high though, so I'm sure you'll forge on.

[tabs52]

Why do U guys think there are so many old Porsches in California. It was because of those high paying defense industry jobs. Those were the guys who were buying them......the Aero Space engineers who loved good engineering. Remember that before WW2 the Germans were considered the leaders in engineering and science. The USA started it's A-Bomb project outa fear of the Huns.

I personally know this to be true because my Dad was one of those guys and alot of engineers back then were involved in the Porsche scene. When I came to the registry I thought I would run into some of those DOD engineers but was I wrong...

[nostatic]

Originally posted by island911
Cars, knives and fire, for examples, are all deadly weapons, and yet we trust even teens to use them properly.

Now I *know* you are nuts. I don't trust a teen with ANYTHING.

hehehe....fire....hehehe

[Milu]

Originally posted by nostatic


I'm curious...what were the circumstances of your gun use? If used during military or police service that doesn't really count for this argument.

No, just a private individual who has lived in, worked in and travelled in some bad places at wild times. I was a lot younger and hopefully stupider then. Today I might have the experience to handle it differently but I would choose to have a gun available just in case.

As I think we both realise neither of our opposing views will convince the other with reason, logic or opinion.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by tabs52
Why do U guys think there are so many old Porsches in California. It was because of those high paying defense industry jobs. Those were the guys who were buying them......the Aero Space engineers who loved good engineering. Remember that before WW2 the Germans were considered the leaders in engineering and science. The USA started it's A-Bomb project outa fear of the Huns.

I personally know this to be true because my Dad was one of those guys and alot of engineers back then were involved in the Porsche scene. When I came to the registry I thought I would run into some of those DOD engineers but was I wrong...

tabs, dont forget the hundreds of German scientists and engineers we kidnapped, kept in internment camps, and used to train our guys.

[nhurto]

So by merely living in this country, I'm promoting arms sales? You do have the Taliban party line down, don't you? Clearly I am guilty and responsible for the death of millions in other countries.

Yes, you are. Part of reaping the benefits of this country is living with blood on your hands. Most Americans don't care that innocent Iraqis and Afghanis are being killed becuase they are the enemy. Watch some BBC news or read the Observer - both reputable new sources from England, our allie. You'll see plenty of articles on just how badly the US trade embargo and bombing of the no-fly zone and are hurting the people or Iraq. They are members of that country, so they are the enemy. It's just a fact of war but it's something that you should think about when you get into your nice car and drive home to a safe house. We trained Bin Laden, we armed Saddam, and we prop up Israel. I don't think you can disagree that our tax dollars go to creating strife in other parts of the world. Like it or not, US bombs, helicopters, planes, and education created modern-day Iraq. The School of the Americas is responsible for training many of today's terrorists - especially those we currently call allies helping us fight the "War on Drugs" in South and Central America.

what about Nuclear weapons, do U feel safe with them around. When we were face to face with the Soviet should the USA just have said we're dismantling them. There isn't much difference from a nuke in the silo and a gun in the drawer simply because a thug is a thug whether it's a country or some scum bag out to rob U. Neither side if I recall used Nukes, it was called mutual deterence. Now this is a little obtuse as a anti-Gun Control arguement granted.

No, I don't feel safe and niether do most humans - which is why MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) was so convincing as foreign policy both in US, USSR, and the rest of the world. You're right, a thug is a thug whether a scumbag on the street mugging old ladies or a spoiled rich kid sending other people's kids off to die(this is both Bush and bin Laden, BTW). Where this breaks down in this debate is in that missiles give enough warning for one side to launch a counter strike, guns don't

I just think Michael Moorer is a pimp for the Democratic party. Anything that doesn't promote Socialism in this country Michael is against.

Pimp for the Dems? Not a chance. Socialist? Probably a moderate one like the Swedish or Canadian model. Say what you like about them, they still have a higher standard of living with less crime and less polution than we do. Socialism is just another way of looking at how the economy works. In some ways it's better than capitalism, in some ways it's worse. (FWIW, the US and the above mentioned are both mixed economies we just lean further away from socialism than they do. However, we all redistribute wealth in the form of non-earned income or services.) Sorry to get off topic but I can't stand the knee-jerk reaction that anything "socialist" is un-American since our economy has plenty of socialist policies benefiting both the rich and the poor.

I love my country, but sometimes our myopic politics really makes me wonder what the hell we are thinking. Fortunatley, as an American I have the right to say so which does make me proud.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Nhurto,


OMG, did you hit the mark! I agree with you 100%. This is the sad truth of America. This is the legacy of Reaganomics, and the military buildup of the 1980's.

Also too, I NEVER rely on US news. I always try to catch the BBC news, MUCh more informative, and uncensored. It's funny, for a country that goes on and on about the freedom of speech, it sure does go out of it's way to not tell it's citizens what is truly and accuratley going on in the world.

[tabs52]

Hypocrisy... is when U opose something publicily and then take the benfits from what you opose. Active particpation or not isn't a saving grace. You have to decide which side your on. You have to accept responsibility for what is done in your name. By your elected officials in your name (the people of the United States). You can't absolve yourself self by saying I'm not activily participating. You are activily participating by taking the benfits, because it feeds the monster, don't fool yourself.

Remember U are living in the New Roman Empire.....only thing is we don't occupy countries with armies and control territory like Rome did........we send McDonalds, Mickey Mouse and Levi Strause. In order for OUR government to keep the Lights on, the SUV's and the Porsches in our garages it has to get it's hands dirty. And by having those luxuries U have to realize you bear responsibility. Otherwise don't take the benfits, go live like Ted Kozinski did in a cabin in Montana. Billions of people in the world do...... The choich is yours.

To sum it up you can't say I'm blameless if you take the benfits. If you say yeah I am partly responsibe for it than your not a hypocrit
Same thing goes for the Death Penalty people are excuted in our name, society as a whole is responsible. If U activily opose it then you can assuage your guilt.....but then to what lenght did U go to opose it? Moral dilemmas

[nhurto]

If U activily opose it then you can assuage your guilt.....but then to what lenght did U go to opose it? Moral dilemmas

There are not enough hours in the day, my friend. Living outside of Washington, D.C., I have seem plenty of the protests about WTO, guns, war, etc. Unfortunatley I am wedded to the machine and there are not enough hours in the day for me to both enjoy my freedoms and go to lengths to stand up for the freedoms of others. So, I get to sit here are the comfort of my desk and write about them. As long I vote, read and try to express to others that there is more than the NBC version of world events, I think I'm doing okay.

And yes, I do have trouble sleeping at night.