Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 9681283)

I have no problem with Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine but it should be as good as any other.

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton (Post 9681245)

I don't know the history/accuracy of the blue paint tales. But I can say that cylinder scoring is quite common. I would say more common than IMSB failures. We are rebuilding a few scored cylinder motors each year now, and only one IMSB failure (which had an aftermarket bearing- go figure).

We have another 2006 cayman S coming shortly with cylinder scoring, a 997 coming as well shortly. My wife just called a local used car dealer about a 2008 Cayman they had only to find out it has a scored cylinder. I have personally owned 2 cars with scored cylinders (2008 Cayman S and 2005 997 S).

If you are buying one of these cars and purchasing an aftermarket warranty, please make sure the coverage amount per claim will cover the engine rebuild cost. We have seen a couple cases where a client thought he was covered only to find out his warranty did not cover even half of the cost...

Originally Posted by motion (Post 9681819)

I'm just guessing here, but I doubt Porsche is trying to compete with Toyota in the engine longevity metric. They may very well be happy to engineer motors that are good for around 130K miles, on average. Maybe somewhere in the middle ground between Toyota and say, Ferrari.

Originally Posted by porsche4life (Post 9681610)

CJ. All of those things are good signs. Has anyone hooked it up to a scan tool and checked timing deviation?

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 9681949)

.... and their gearboxes should be made in GERMANY!

Originally Posted by rusnak (Post 9681260)

Sorry for the dumb question, but what causes cylinder scoring? Would this be the same for example on a lawnmower or chain saw? Does this occur more often in the water cooled cars? I can't seriously remember cylinder scoring being an issue in the old days.

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy (Post 9681335)

Peter, while I totally agree, name one premium car company that this applies to. Mercedes used to build to a standard, and built cars that last generations. Now they are full of gizmos that might make it through your warranty period if you're lucky. If you want a car to go 200k without issues, you'd be better off buying a Camry, F150, or Miata.

Originally Posted by pwd72s (Post 9679704)

Are you a glutton for punishment?

Originally Posted by 1990C4S (Post 9682529)

Why do you care? The same parts and processes are used around the world...:confused:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 9681056)

I have to tell you guys (after reading this thread and the referenced Planet 9 thread with great interest) that I smell another blown-way-out-of-proportion internet panic. It has all of the ingredients - the accused company in denial it's doing anything wrong, folks "in the know" at that company saying otherwise, reputable mechanics having done a great deal of research, and on and on. Quite the nefarious scheme, replete with all of the intrigue requisite for such.

Bottom line is, the failure rate on newer Porsche engines is so small as to be insignificant (I believe they still lead the J.D. Powers surveys on owner satisfaction, and have for some time). Unless, of course, it is yours and it's out of warranty - then it is very significant to you, the owner, and looking at a $15k bill, we all want to see another answer. Misdeeds at the manufacturer are the best - they may gain you a free repair, if ever proven.

Now if it was yours from new, and you are therefore knowledgeable about its history, care, and upkeep, that's one thing - assuming it's been well treated and cared for. If it's used, even with the ability to kinda sorta evaluate its history both from maintenance records and stored in the car electronic records (over revs, etc.), face it - you still don't know how the thing was really treated. You are buying a performance car that may have been "ridden hard and put away wet" as a matter of course, or you may be buying one that was treated respectfully. You just don't know. A "premature" engine failure on such a car - and I would not categorize one failing with over 100k on the clock as such - has always been kind of the lotto we play when purchasing used toys of this sort.

As far as Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine that failed any part of its testing - why the hell not? I think any manufacturer that does not utilize the good components from their rejected assemblies - motors, trannies, brakes, suspension - whatever - would have to be insane. Would it trouble any of you to know that in large commercial aircraft manufacturing, the re-use of good components from a failed or out of spec assembly is common practice? Come on, think about this for a moment. I suppose this might speak to the less than mechanically inclined, to know that their motor was partially assembled with the good parts of a "bad" motor - they think they are getting a less than top quality unit. Hogwash. These are all zero mile components. "Remanufactured" sounds ominous, like a high mileage rebuilt motor, at least to the folks who don't understand manufacturing.

So, yeah - seems like much ado about nothing to me. Another perfect "conspiracy theory" that those staring a $15k bill in the face really want to believe. Some big evil corporation put their motor together knowing it would fail. Out of warranty, of course - their predictive modeling can nail its service life that closely to where the company knows it is safe... Really? Does anyone really believe all of that? I suppose...

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 9682574)

Would you be OK with a Porsche built in a Korean, Japanese or a Chinese factory?

Originally Posted by CJFusco (Post 9682563)

Yeah, you know, it's funny: when it comes to luxury brands nowadays, it almost seems like a happy accident when a specific model ends up representing excellence, and it seems to take time to figure out which models hang in there (just as it's taken some time for the public to begin to realize that the m96 and m97 engines are fragile). For example, although BMW has had a score of drivetrain problems in the 2000s, the E39 platform is largely considered a paragon of quality; many sources attest that if you buy yourself a late 90s/early 00s 528 or 540, you're buying a car that will last well into the 200+K mile range. This used to be something that people understood inherently about a given make of car; for example, what were the two things that people knew about Volvo in the late 80s/early 90s? They are super safe, and they last forever. Sure enough, where I live (western Connecticut) you see COUNTLESS Volvo 240s, 740s, 850s, and even V70s on the road. I've never really counted, but I'd be willing to bet that you see more 200k+ mile, 20+ years old Volvos on the road here than any other make.

What will be today's luxury cars that still hang in there? Smart money is probably on Lexus and Audi right now based on initial quality and long-term test results, but as their electronics age, who knows? After all, the m97 generation of Porsche sports cars always did very well in those kinds of metrics, and look what's happening now.

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton (Post 9681245)

I don't know the history/accuracy of the blue paint tales. But I can say that cylinder scoring is quite common. I would say more common than IMSB failures. We are rebuilding a few scored cylinder motors each year now, and only one IMSB failure (which had an aftermarket bearing- go figure).

We have another 2006 cayman S coming shortly with cylinder scoring, a 997 coming as well shortly. My wife just called a local used car dealer about a 2008 Cayman they had only to find out it has a scored cylinder. I have personally owned 2 cars with scored cylinders (2008 Cayman S and 2005 997 S).

If you are buying one of these cars and purchasing an aftermarket warranty, please make sure the coverage amount per claim will cover the engine rebuild cost. We have seen a couple cases where a client thought he was covered only to find out his warranty did not cover even half of the cost...

Originally Posted by CJFusco (Post 9682551)

I'm no engineer or expert but I've read up on this issue, so I'll chime in as best I can. Those of you who know more can feel free to correct any details I get wrong.

There are a number of factors that contribute to bore/cylinder scoring: the material used to line the cylinder wall, engine internal temperature, and oil viscosity being chief among them. From what I understand, if the engine temp is high and the engine is run at a high RPM (especially before the oil is properly warmed, which can be exacerbated by the inaccuracy of the in-dash gauge), the lack of lubrication between the cylinder and the cylinder wall can create a friction that creates a "scratch" on the side of the cylinder wall that might not in and of itself be a problem, but as time goes on that defect in the cylinder wall grows. Owners of m97-engined cars start noticing that their car is consuming more oil, and they start to notice the engine running a little rougher and more smoke from their left tailpipe (or that their left tailpipe gets dirtier faster than the right).

This appears to be the cancer of the m97 engine, and is far more common than the IMS bearing failures that plagued the m96 cars. It can also be a problem because it often doesn't get diagnosed until it's too late -- these cars burn a little oil anyhow, and a lot of cars have darker left tailpipes even without a bore scoring issue.

What can one do to prevent it? Don't bring the engine into the top of the rev range before it's totally warmed up (significantly later than the gauge in the dash indicates). Build revs gradually. Install a 3rd radiator and a low-temp thermostat. Use better oil than Mobil1; there are m97 experts out there who will attest that Mobil1 is actually contributing to this issue and advise using Motul or Joe Gibbs oil.

It appears that "cylinder failure" (which is different than "cylinder scoring") is a totally different issue that's affecting more and more m96 and m97 engines as time goes on; this is what my car *might* be showing symptoms of. I won't know for sure until my local shop takes a look, though.

Originally Posted by rusnak (Post 9683176)

Thank you for the excellent answer!

I switched away from Mobil 1 in the early 2000s. I thought the same way about it's lack of protection. Motul, hmm...

Originally Posted by 911_Dude (Post 9683208)

Not the oil. Please!