"Blue Paint" Engines

[CJFusco]

Hey all -- although this is a question about Porsche engines, I am posting in OT because 1) it applies to 986, 996, 987, and 997 engines, and 2) the Cayman forum doesn't really get a whole lot of traffic.

My car has developed an unpleasant engine noise that is currently being diagnosed by experts. If it ends up being worst-case-scenario (imminent cylinder failure), I would be unlikely to dump a lot of money into an engine rebuild for a variety of reasons.

Anyhow, in chatting with a local Porsche specialist, he mentioned the "blue paint" engines that mark some sort of defect that was addressed at the factory level; I'd never heard of the "blue paint" engines, but did a little digging here and elsewhere and have found that a disproportionate percentage of m96 and m97 engines that have the blue paint markers end up experiencing complete engine failures of one sort or another (cylinder, D-chunk, IMSicon, bore-scoring, etc.).

Sure enough, in my correspondence with a very well-known Porsche engine-builder, the bombshell "that's the death warrant" was dropped with regard to the "blue paint" splotch on the side of an engine; according to this engine-builder EVERY SINGLE m96/m97 engine that's come into his shop with a tough-to-diagnose issue has ended up being an engine failure.

First of all, I'm shocked and dismayed at the irresponsibility and negligence of the Porsche company from the late 1990s right up to the Dieselgate scandal of a couple years ago; the more info I uncover, the more clear it is that Porsche -- a company known for its quality and craftsmanship -- systematically employed practices that they knew weren't up to the standards suggested by its reputation.

Secondly, I want to make sure that my car is indeed a "blue paint" engine. Are the marks in the pictures below the type of blue splotches that others have mentioned as marking a "blue paint" engine?

Thanks in advance.

[pwd72s]

Ouch! Sorry to hear that. A red sox fan deserves better...

(edit) Also, I couldn't agree more...Porsche is trading on a past reputation.

[Brando]

Dang, say it aint so Now that I recall, I think my (former) Cayman S had blue paint on the engine. I ended up letting it go to a shop for what I owed.

What's the recourse here? Buy a new engine from Porsche or rebuild or ... ?

[CJFusco]

The more I dig, the more fascinating this thing gets.

I mean, the normal recourse would be to have the engine rebuilt by my local shop or have one built (I know that the Flat-Six Innovations 3.8 is a popular option). BUT I'm not going to shell out $10K-18K on this thing. For starters, the car has a "Rebuilt" (formerly "Salvage") title due to being rear-ended about two years ago; I also now have a one-year-old daughter and have more pressing priorities than shelling out thousands and thousands of dollars into the car.

I suppose that another option might be to seek out an engine from a wrecked car. I'm not sure at this point how that compares, cost-wise, to option #1.

Another recourse would be to have an LS engine installed in the car. But I dunno... seems like it wouldn't really be a Porsche at that point.

Another recourse would be to sell the car as-is to a dismantler. I'm not sure how much they pay for broken 987s, especially ones with a "salvage" title (although I guess it doesn't really matter if the car's being dismantled...).

I guess my other option would be to part the car out, which could be a headache, but would probably net me more than selling it whole.

Of course, it might end up being a minor issue... at this point, all I have is a strange engine sound. But I'm learning enough about these engines to suspect that the diagnosis is going to be terminal.

[Eric Coffey]

Hmm, I was under the impression that the "blue dot" indicated a remanufactured engine case.
I thought those were only used/sold under Porsche's remanufactured engine program though (typically used for warranty replacements I believe) and never installed on new production cars.
Are you sure you have the original engine there?

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Hmm, I was under the impression that the "blue dot" indicated a remanufactured engine case.
I thought those were only used/sold under Porsche's remanufactured engine program though (typically used for warranty replacements I believe) and never installed on new production cars.
Are you sure you have the original engine there?

It turns out that MANY Porsche owners in the early 2000s received BRAND NEW cars with blue paint on their engines. The word from the big U.S. Porsche tuners/engine-builders, based on the info they've managed to squeeze out of people at Porsche AG is that the blue paint means that some component failed during initial quality control tests, and that the engine was remanufactured before being installed into a BRAND NEW car. According to some sources (I'm hesitant to name names out of school), they've found evidence of cases that were WELDED from the factory in blue-paint cars (but never cars WITHOUT the blue paint).

There's a thorough thread about it over at Planet-9. Ken (known as K-Man) apparently did a LOT of homework to accompany his own legal action against Porsche and the dealership that sold him his car. A lot to read through on this thread, but it's informative:

Do you have a Blue Paint Engine?

[gtc]

1. Buy and install cheap, running, replacement motor.
2. Sell car on craigslist.
3. Change email address and phone number.

[1990C4S]

Or just 2. and 3.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

It turns out that MANY Porsche owners in the early 2000s received BRAND NEW cars with blue paint on their engines. The word from the big U.S. Porsche tuners/engine-builders, based on the info they've managed to squeeze out of people at Porsche AG is that the blue paint means that some component failed during initial quality control tests, and that the engine was remanufactured before being installed into a BRAND NEW car. According to some sources (I'm hesitant to name names out of school), they've found evidence of cases that were WELDED from the factory in blue-paint cars (but never cars WITHOUT the blue paint).

Interesting. I've heard about the welded cases on the re-man engines, but never heard of one actually being discovered on an original engine.
I know there is a lot of unconfirmed info out there, so I'd be cautious to take anything as hard-fact, but it certainly is a bit unsettling if true...

Still, I'd be curious to know if your engine is original. If you aren't sure, maybe ordering a COA/Kardex would be worthwhile?

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by Brando

Dang, say it aint so Now that I recall, I think my (former) Cayman S had blue paint on the engine. I ended up letting it go to a shop for what I owed.

What's the recourse here? Buy a new engine from Porsche or rebuild or ... ?

Brando, what is it that went wrong with your Cayman?

[HardDrive]

I hated having this stuff in the back of my mind when I had my 997S.

I would like to own a Cayman S, but every time I look at one, I can't get it out of my head that I would be driving a $25k car that could suddenly need a $15k engine replacement.

Is my 2003 Mustang Mach 1 as good as a 2003 911? No, I don't think so. But it's plenty fast, and I can rag the sh t of it without a care in the world.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

I hated having this stuff in the back of my mind when I had my 997S.

I would like to own a Cayman S, but every time I look at one, I can't get it out of my head that I would be driving a $25k car that could suddenly need a $15k engine replacement.

Is my 2003 Mustang Mach 1 as good as a 2003 911? No, I don't think so. But it's plenty fast, and I can rag the sh t of it without a care in the world.

So true-
I now have a 78 sc- and really don't care if a head stud fails, I can handle it, Not so with 997 s.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

I hated having this stuff in the back of my mind when I had my 997S.

I would like to own a Cayman S, but every time I look at one, I can't get it out of my head that I would be driving a $25k car that could suddenly need a $15k engine replacement.

Totally. That said, an aftermarket 4yr/50k mile warranty can be had for under $3k from reputable vendors these days (Route 66, etc.).
Probably worth the piece of mind if ever considering a 986/987/996/997 purchase. Or, you could just pick up a Turbo or GT2/GT3 car of the same vintage and sleep like a baby.

[pwd72s]

The Porsche tax strikes again.

[Brando]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

Brando, what is it that went wrong with your Cayman?

Hey CJ, I never got the final diagnosis of what was damaged, but it was definitely top-end/valve-train related, they assumed IMSB failure led to cam timing off, piston met valves, etc. I got multiple estimates of rebuild it or replace it starting at 14k before any "while we're in there" issues.

Quite disappointing to find what could have been a great car with such value behind the badge, to have a critical failure and the brand pretty much just shrugs it off. If it would have been paid off I would have just registered it as PNO and saved for a V8 swap. But what good is it to make payments on a car with a dead engine?

[911_Dude]

This topic exploded on Planet9 several years ago. I cant remember how it "ended", but I think it was found to be nothing more than one of several other manufacturing marks. I wouldnt worry about it. For one thing, there are so many Blue Paint engines out there that I find it hard to believe that there are that many flawed engines being remanufactured. It doesnt make sense.

[Nickshu]

I have my 996 on the lift in my garage now...just went out and looked for blue paint. Saw none.

[M.D. Holloway]

CJ, there is a book in that story!

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

CJ, there is a book in that story!

Once all the dust has settled, I've actually thought about writing something up about Porsche's decisions as a company during the time period of the late 1990s into the early 2000s -- it looks like they made a lot of really bad decisions regarding quality control and customer service, both of which (based purely on circumstantial evidence) have improved since around 2010-2011.

The IMS issues, blue paint, bore scoring, oil delivery issues, and Porsche's apparent cover-up of some of these sort of boggle the mind. And then, of course, there's Dieselgate (but one has to wonder how much Porsche actually knew about those issues). Who knows whether or not the 991/981 series of cars will end up having any kind of reliability/quality issue that plagued the m96/m97 engines. I hope not. Right now it LOOKS like they're better... but it takes a few years to find out, sometimes, as Cayman owners are now finding out.

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by Brando

Hey CJ, I never got the final diagnosis of what was damaged, but it was definitely top-end/valve-train related, they assumed IMSB failure led to cam timing off, piston met valves, etc. I got multiple estimates of rebuild it or replace it starting at 14k before any "while we're in there" issues.

Quite disappointing to find what could have been a great car with such value behind the badge, to have a critical failure and the brand pretty much just shrugs it off. If it would have been paid off I would have just registered it as PNO and saved for a V8 swap. But what good is it to make payments on a car with a dead engine?

Just out of curiosity, what were the symptoms of your failure?

It sounds like IMS and bore scoring are ruled out in the case of my car's strange engine noise. Most people listening to my car would say it's a lifter, but apparently the lifters in these engines don't frequently fail, and cylinder issues are often misdiagnosed as noisy lifters, so who knows.

Blackstone oil analysis came back clean. There was no metal on my magnetic drain plug.

Automotive Associates will be looking at the car on Monday. I think they plan on pulling the sump to look for debris and then scoping the cylinders. Who knows: it might end up being nothing. But I wouldn't bet on it.