Interesting thing about the "PPI" sheet is that the line drawing is a Porsche.

Excuse me while I write a check for $35,000, kiss it, fold in 2 and put it in my pocket.
Sorry, but no way I'm doing this deal without seeing the car.
You come here to vent. Why not come here before the purchase and ask for help?
Excuse the venting, but I'm upset for you.

Not that I'm a genius, but when I wanted to buy a Porsche cross-country it took me one day to find a Pelican willing to examine the car and drive it for me.

Not that it helps in this case, but for anyone else considering a similar venture this is so easy now, take the time.

I think the OP has made a very fair offer to the seller, I hope he accepts.

Lastly, as a 964 owner, I do not think your car choice was very good for a safe and reliable car. 996? Probably much better all around, and one-half the cost.

Seller is not getting back to me at all. I have decided to take a loss on the sale and sell it at a discount while fully explaining all the issues the car has.

Best part is this guy Brad Barker (the seller) claims one of his hobbies is restoring vehicles. Here is a quick list of the issues: (not disclosed)

- front clip replaced
- ABS not working
- AWD not working
- rubber trim installed backwards/upside down
- headliner sagging, quarter windows need to be taken out because the fabric isn't in the trim
- passenger door doesn't open
- motorized tail doesn't go up
- the new shocks are old used ones
- the rebuilt motor used "old parts" for the rebuild and from what we can tell, Japanese screws
- there is a serious dent on the side of the car too, undisclosed, from the accident it appears
- hood latch is barely operable, jimmy'd together
- battery keeps dying, very old
- car won't start right now, might be a relay or fuel issue
- passenger airbag missing
- brakes are dragging
- missing fender liners
- and more!

Thanks Brad! About the Author — B.S. Barker

Brad's profile on Pelican here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/members/217077.html

Wait, you bought a car from a BS Barker?

I mean the name says it all, he barks bull****.

What a dick

oh good; it's not just me thinking that.

Thanks. Looks like the seller was forthright about the condition.

Assuming that the buyer actually had a proper PPI done, and not that Jiffy Lube BS already posted, I would say that he at least tried to do his due diligence. In this case as the car was grossly misrepresented I strongly suspect the PPI shop, or at least the mechanic, were in on it. Any competent shop would catch many of those major issues, even if they weren't a Porsche specialty shop.

Well, there are some obvious problems. The seller said the ABS was working fine, it's not. The photographs show that the rear wing must be operating, as it's shown in two positions, but the buyer says it doesn't work. There's also quite a disconnect between how well the seller said it ran, and the fact that the buyer saying it won't even start now.

I don't know what private conversations occurred between the buyer and the seller but, even allowing for the buyer not being knowledgeable enough to do his own due diligence, the seller clearly can't stand behind the car that he sold. There's no way that I could represent that car in the way that the seller did. He may be fairly clueless but he should be willing to talk to the buyer. The buyer has been a lot more accommodating than I would've been in the same situation.

Based on the buyers description of how the seller is acting, I would probably invest a few hundred dollars in consulting with an attorney and having the attorney reach out to the buyer, if there are any legal remedies available. I realize that most vehicle sales are of the "as is, where is" nature, but there may be some intentional misrepresentation here. It's one thing to be stupid, it's another thing to lie. We don't know enough facts to know which area we're dealing with.

As for the PPI, it's a good thing the shop is discontinuing that practice. Clearly, they don't have the capability of performing a decent PPI. I would certainly have a conversation to see how friendly the shop and the seller were.

If I were to offer advice to the buyer, it would be to fix all of the issues and let the kid use the car. There's no point in taking a sizable loss just to sell it now, then being no better off in the search for a suitable car. I would not have bought this car for either of my kids, but I don't know this particular kid.

Full description:
The 3.6 liter engine was completely rebuilt two months ago by Bob Woodman in Beaufort, SC, who is very well known for his quality. The engine didn’t just receive a top end, but a total overhaul......

OP: the rebuilt motor used "old parts" for the rebuild and from what we can tell, Japanese screws

The suspension has newer Bilstein HDs on all four corners with Eibach springs. ...... The ABS and Diff lock are also functioning, as they should.......

OP: ABS not working....AWD not working ....the new shocks are old used ones
To be fair seller says "newer shocks" not "new" but he wanted to create the impression they were

The pads, rotors, and stainless lines were redone less than 2500 miles ago,
OP: - brakes are dragging

The car doesn’t need many things to be mechanically excellent.
Based on OP's list, it seems it doesn't need "many things" it needs a lot of things


The title is clear, but there’s an accident on the Carfax from an off-road accident. I’ve had the front tub checked out by a professional, and everything is fine, and the car aligned, as it should, on a rack. I have the Carfax to show anyone of the incident.
Front tub checked indicates front end damage that was not structurally significant not "it was so bad the entire front clip was replaced."

The airbags did blow, and replacement bags were mounted; RS bridged.
OP: - passenger airbag missing


It almost seems like everything the seller listed as being touched is an issue.

If it was me I would never buy a car that I had not seen myself. Getting a Pelican member that lived in the seller's area to check it out first would make sense before travelling to look at it.

As mentioned above going to see a lawyer to get advice should not cost you too much.Further to that a letter from the lawyer stating intentions to take legal action might get him to settle out of court.

The seller will likely continue to do this kind of misrepresentation on other unsuspecting buyers unless he is nailed. Sorry for your loss.:eek:

man I don't want to pile on but red fan is INSTANT DQ for me on a 911. tells a LOT about the cars owner.

I can tell you I would not be here to hurt your feelings if I had been allowed to drive a 911 at 16.

specialty cars are NOT an arena for check writers who aren't filthy rich and anyone expecting a 180k mile chassis to be any kind of reliable is kidding themselves.

OP you were the fool the seller was looking for.

oh and the seller most certainly should take the car back for purchase price at your shipping expense. and be shunned.

The airbag and abs are safety issues, seems to me that's a no brainer even in a far away state. The advice about lawyers though is spot on - unless a Pelican brother in SC is willing to step up and help out sorta pro bono its not likely to pay. OTOH, if you can prove that he actually knew about the abs and the airbag (and maybe the awd) you might get punative damages. The other stuff is pretty blatant salesmanship, but carefully worded enough to likely pass. But as it is, I'd consider the car defective. Of course, my 911 has neither abs nor airbags, but I didn't buy it for a 16 year old.

Quoted from the seller's add:

"With its history, I know it's not for everyone, but it is most likely the cheapest Coupe you will find for sale,"

It is a sly way of saying this may be a POS so be forewarned.

The add is all over the place as to condition. In parts its trying to minimalize issues and sell sell sell; then in other parts trying for full disclosure.

The 2 things that get me most are ABS and Airbags. I've looked up whether its illegal to sell a car with a knowing airbag fault or missing. No definitive answer, so OP should contact an attorney in the state from which it was sold. These are safety issues and potentially the best areas for legal recourse with the seller. Maybe work out a deal to get $$ to have those two fixed since he clearly represented that they worked properly or in the case of the airbag that it was replaced.

I agree with Javadog. Fix this one and let the kid drive it UNLESS it is unsafe. No reason to take a loss just to spend more.

Here is some history on the car:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-993-technical-forum/915203-964-died-while-driving.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-marketplace-discussion/918435-90-964-c4-blown-motor-sell-car-price.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/870174-1990-porsche-964-carrera-4-white-black.html

OP: How does the AWD 'not work'? As I understand it the 964 AWD drives, or does not drive...and it is typically pretty reliable.

When I read the car ad I read nothing but Here is a car that has been through a lot, messed with a lot. Of course I read between the lines a lot.

Yeah, I would let the kid fix it. Children with no investment in a gift end up... Well, I'll just say, when I was 16, dropping a motor to replace a clutch, or some such, was no big deal. IOW, I benefited greatly by having to learn how to fix things.

And if the goal is a reliable car... buy the kid a Honda.

From the 2015 for sale add:

"Back in 2002, there was an off-road front end accident (carfax). The owner at the time drove into a wall in his parking garage at work. "

And more importantly this:

"RS airbag delete kit and properly bypassed with genuine RS bridge. "

Yes, it seems the buyer has not had much experience with teenage boys and has forgotten what he was probably like during those years. We almost killed ourselves in low powered VWs. If I was a judge and this came before me I'd say you got what you deserved. Quit crying and trying to use lawyers to recover from your bad judgement. I got my sons a Volvo 240 brick to share. They finally wore it out but they survived and didn't get in an accident. Also IMHO PPI's are a big money maker at many shops, just point out a few things and call it done. E.g. I got a PPI on a E46 BMW - they listed FCABs and RTABs - probably didn't even put it up on the rack or drive it.

More car analysis. Less parenting analysis.

The OP asked for help with the seller and the PPI....maybe we need to pretend the car was for him.

He's in a crap spot right now, I suggest we cut him some slack on the parenting side.

Interesting post.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-993-technical-forum/889810-new-me-964-issues.html#post8866415

Sounds like a summary would be:
- Most think the seller was clearly fraudulent
- Most think the shop was grossly incompetent
- Some think I was foolish for not getting it better checked out or having different expectations
- Some think I am foolish for my parenting style

Brad has been ignoring me and clearly isn't interested in settling the matter. Even if he disagreed with my points, why not take the car back vs saying "sold as is, its yours now!"

I don't want to put good money into fixing this car, and have found a few buyers that will take it at a loss, with full disclosure of all the issues.

The real issue here, besides Brad being a real piece of work, is I need to find a car for my son. I'd like to spend $25k-$30k so the $35k I paid was already a real stretch (not counting the loss I will eat on this Brad car). Something reliable, simple, and safe.

Perhaps an earlier year 911 is the best way to go. I realize that others will suggest a 996 or a Boxster but if a reliable 911 could be sourced that would be ideal. Reliability to me means no major $$ needed upfront or on the horizon and regular maintenance over the next few years.

Parenting aside. I could have a been a bit harsh on that. I don't claim to have done a perfect job of parenting myself.
Why a Porsche? Maybe you explained that earlier and I missed it.
There are plenty of as fast or faster cars at the money you want to spend with updated safety features. I understand if you think your son needs to have a car up to snuff compared to the other kids at his school, but I don't think a Porsche is necessary to accomplish that. If you want reliability and reasonable repair costs if there is an issue, I would look at Honda or Toyota. My son will soon be selling his 99 328i, manual, it only has 220k miles. Of course I've spoiled him by closely tending to it along the way. For what you might pay for that you could fix a lot with the remaining budget. BMW's are not known for low maintenance costs, but I've keep the costs down by fixing everything myself. In any case there are many choices better than a older well used Porsche.

The kid just loves Porsche. What can I say, I’ve owned 8 or 9 myself.

no question the seller is a piece of crap. I do truly feel for you on the issue. this is why we have community where reputations are important. you did your due diligence unfortunately you didn't have the 'street smarts' to smell a rat and were taken advantage of.

you didn't ask for opinions on the wisdom of putting a 16 yr old in a 911 so i'll withhold my opinion on that but I will hint that it isn't kind and does not involve an even faster car with no roof.

I wish you were my dad. :D

I'm sorry & this isn't anything against you as a person, but if it were me I'd spend the money & more to return the car on taking this guy to court. However it's your choice and you must have reasons for avoiding it. If you prevail, you could recoup your expenses and maybe prevent this dick of a guy from doing the same to others as his normal course of conduct. I also know making him follow through might be an effort, but I'd let him know I was going to pile on whatever it took for him to make things right. Everybody's different, but that's just the way I see it. I do wish you the best of luck on the deal.

Trust but verify. -RR

Sad that the PPI was so sloppy. They've admitted it was sloppy. Seems that their slop cost you much more than the cost of the PPI.

FWIW, I stopped trusting PPI's when a seller said they would pay for the PPI if it didn't come back clean (else I would pay). Considering I saw multiple items wrong with that used Porsche I knew that the PPI would catch it. I was wrong. Not only did the PPI come back clean, the PPI shop (also dealer -a Porsche dealer) wrote a letter saying how magnificently perfect the vehicle was. (cough collusion cough)

Of course other PPI's have picked at every nit. --money well spent.

Moral of the story, PPI's of used cars... the cleaner they are, the more suspect you should be.

Holy smokes. The seller in this thread said the following in the quoted thread above:

Yeah I would be getting a partial refund for this poor representation... perhaps my attorney involved (been there twice and it sucks). However, it is a pretty car and can all be fixed. The lights on are more than likely the weird bugs these cars have. Mine had a ton on when I bought it and it turned out to be minor things.


The airbags can be fixed a couple ways. It depends on if you want the old gen. airbags active. Some say they can do more harm than good, others can not get over not having an airbag. An option is for 45-60 bucks (or whatever) you can get the Genuine RS bypass bridge from Porsche and deactivate them all together. This opens up for an aftermarket wheel if you so desire, or take out the bridge at any time and reactivate them. I say fix the problem and then bypass it. Choice is yours.



Back to the airbag thing. He has several posts, including one about the car he sold OP, about deleting airbag. However, he said in the advert that the airbags worked. Hmmm

Oh his last ad he said: The airbags did blow, and replacement bags were mounted; RS bridged.
I asked him on the phone if the RS bridge could be removed so that the bags would be active on both sides.
There is no passenger bag currently.

BTW the battery was down to 4V this morning.

My final offer to him is for him to pay $5,000 to recoup some of the loss. No reply yet.

Ya I'd hold on to that car and contact an attorney friend foe letter of intent to sue.

LOL! Yep, my first car was an 11 year old Ford, and I earned the money for it. But life was tough back when dirt was rocks.

(edit) That said, I'd probably sell the car honestly...and move on. A lesson learned. You can gain some satisfaction in having outed a dishonest seller.

Seems the seller got tired of his money pit and decided to move it along while trying to minimize his own loss.

His disclosure of condition seems carefully crafted to make the known issues sound like they were addressed in manner consistent with what one might reasonably expect.

Sort of like when a prospective employer calls for a reference on a past employee of yours and you respond with "I can't begin to tell you how great he was", because he sucked but you can't say that.

Surely not from Ball State sales and marketing major BS Barker...

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...6/?format=300w

Also from the sales advert: " but I have tons of receipts to show what has been done. Thanks for looking. "


So OP, did you get a 'ton of receipts' with the car? If so, what did they indicate?

You might consider a 2000-2005 or 2006 911 that has the engine design where the LN Engineering "easily installed" kit can be used. I don't know what the installation price is but at least you don't need to disassemble the engine (just remove transmission). If there is no bore scuffing you might have a fairly reliable car. I still would not give a teenager a 350HP sports car.

I remember trying to talk my dad into a Porsche 912 for my first car. Nothin doing. I ended up with a VW Fastback. That was a very good car (back in those days). I drove the crap out of it and changed the oil very 3000 miles. Only ran it off the road 2 times.

Thanks guys for all the input. I have sold the car to a mechanic at a loss, fully disclosed.