How Many is Too Many?

[Jeff Higgins]

Tickets, that is. In Washington state.

Lest you bunch of smart asses think it's me, or either of my illustrious Porsche driving sons, I actually had a co-worker approach me with this. I didn't know what to say, especially considering the way he put it...

"Hey Higgins, you must get a lot of tickets, so tell me..." (he knows what I drive, and what I ride). I was gonna poke him in the eye or something, but we are at work. I mean, c'mon, I've had something like three tickets in 33 years of driving. But I digress...

Anyway, I told him I would do some research; that "I know someone who knows someone who could tell me". Not that I'm saying any of you are likely suspects, but...

We don't have a points system with the insurance companies, so I'm not sure how our rates in Washington increase (or not) with tickets. What about the state itself? Is it total number, ever, or total number over a period of time, or some goofy formula, or what? When do they come and take your license, assuming it's all petty speeding and stuff like that?

[Jamil]

Washington doesn't have a points system?!? You mean I've spent the last few years behaving for nothing? I'll have to get out of bed for the XXX breakfasts more often.

[gtc]

I have a friend who had 12 speeding tickets on his record before losing his license for some other reason (I think he got caught without insurance twice). I don't think there is a limit, as long as you settle the tickets and can maintain insurance coverage.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Jamil

Washington doesn't have a points system?!? You mean I've spent the last few years behaving for nothing? I'll have to get out of bed for the XXX breakfasts more often.

Wow, here is a voice from the past! How have you been? Where have you been? No track days, not at the XXX...

Originally Posted by gtc

I have a friend who had 12 speeding tickets on his record before losing his license for some other reason (I think he got caught without insurance twice). I don't think there is a limit, as long as you settle the tickets and can maintain insurance coverage.

12??!! That's incredible. I would think the state would come after you long before that. Of course, it used to be a much bigger deal to get a ticket than it is today. 20 years ago, if you got a ticket, you probably did something to really deserve it. Not so much today...

Maybe we are becoming like the U.K., in that so many of their citizens have tickets (mostly photo radar) on their records that it just really doesn't mean much anymore. As a matter of fact, so many just ignore them, they tried to declare a "ticket amnesty" period where one could pay old tickets without additional late fines. Turns out no one did that, either.

On that note, I wonder how long it would take our system to collapse under its own weight if no one mailed their tickets in, if everyone just threw them away when they got home. My bet is less than a week before the whole damn thing imploded.

[gtc]

Umm.... why would the state want to STOP you from getting tickets?

And you can't just ignore parking tickets anymore. The city of seattle sent one of my parking tickets to collection last year after I misplaced it. I also got a ticket in the mail from the diamond parking people for not paying to park in one of their lots. So much for our privacy!

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by gtc

Umm.... why would the state want to STOP you from getting tickets?

Exactly. It used to mean (when you got a ticket) that you were posing a hazard to other motorists. It was a little bit of work to prosecute one and get a conviction under the old "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of evidence, and back when due process still applied. They had to have a really good reason. They lost money any time anyone fought a ticket.

Nowadays, under the "preponderance" standard of evidence (which essentially means "none"), and having duped us out of due process, it costs very little to prosecute, and it's just about a sure-fired "committed" verdict.

In light of that, I guess you're right. Why cut off a steady source of revenue? I guess as long as one only gets the petty little 5-10 over tickets, the state probably doesn't care. Kind of ironic, though, if that's the case. They are essentially saying you are really not a big enough hazard to everyone else to be worth their time to bother with. Yet you are a big enough hazard to cite. Kind of a "catch 22" in reverse.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hey Jeff,

I'm unfamilar with WA's laws, but here in OR, 10 tickets in a 5 year period gets you classified as a Habitual Offender and thats a mandatory 10 year suspension. At one time, I was damned close so that how I found out about this.

Insurance companies take a dim view of anyone collecting 3 tickets in a year and thats even more costly.

I won't even go into the revenue aspect of traffic enforcement; here in OR, the fines are very high now and a nice income stream for the empty state coffers.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yikes, Steve - ten year suspension??!! Holy shee-it. That seems pretty damn hard to justify for an accumulation of what they term (at least up here) as "non-criminal infractions". I'm not sure what the particulars of Oregon law might be, but in Washington, that classification essentially means there is no burden of proof whatsoever placed upon the accusing officer. If he says ya done it, ya done it... end of story. We are absolutely unable to contest on evidence of any kind; the only way to win is on some procedural or book keeping technicality. A ten year suspension is far too much to risk at that level of infraction, with such a low (non-existent) requirement for evidence of any kind. Yikes...

Anyway, it turns out a co-worker's wife is an assistant D.A. in Snohomish County. His assignment for the day was to go home and ask her. I'll report back when he tells me, assuming he remembers.

As an aside, he mentioned that she has told him darn near 20% of all drivers we see on the road in Washington these days have suspended licenses. That sounds high to me. If it's really anywhere close to that, that alone should tell us all something about how over the top, out of control enforcement has become. I have a very hard time believing that one out of five drivers poses enough of a threat to the rest of us to actually yank their license. No way.

[mongrelcat]

No more warnings for misbehaving Bellevue drivers | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

HeraldNet: Think you can beat a speeding ticket in Snohomish County?

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by mongrelcat

No more warnings for misbehaving Bellevue drivers | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

i have no problem issuing tickets to school zone speeders...come on people those areas are well marked. so long as they are actually active when children are present...supposed to be around the time school is starting ad letting out, other wise the regular limit should be in effect. hope they adjust those cameras for the time of day.

and a school zone is 20mph...not 50mph WTF? you should get a ticket

[RussianBlue]

Well Jeff, you are just fortunate that they don't give tickets for being butt ugly (car or driver) . . .

[bonkers]

Originally Posted by RussianBlue

Well Jeff, you are just fortunate that they don't give tickets for being butt ugly (car or driver) . . .

Hey now, Jeff's car is not butt ugly. You'll hurt its feelings...

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Maybe we are becoming like the U.K., in that so many of their citizens have tickets (mostly photo radar) on their records that it just really doesn't mean much anymore. As a matter of fact, so many just ignore them, they tried to declare a "ticket amnesty" period where one could pay old tickets without additional late fines. Turns out no one did that, either.

Last I knew, they also handed out points for speeding tickets. I believe that just three tickets was enough to suspend your license.

Looks like 3-6 points per offence depending on speed and possibility of instant disqualification. Offences (and hence points) persist on your record for 3 years. Accumulate 12 points at any time and your license is suspended for 6 months.

Ref:
The Law
Speed fines
Road Traffic Offences, Motoring Offences, Totting, Speeding, Disqualification

The bloody things are everywhere now! The worst are on dual carriageways or motorways - freeways - where you are happily cruising along at 60 or 70 (perhaps a wee bit more) and suddenly *BAM!* camera in your face - they have head on cameras triggered by plates in the road like a traffic light - or you pass under a gantry with a variable speed sign on it - bloody M25 - and think "Oh crap, was there a camera on the back side of that? What is the limit here and now anyway??" and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

Needless to say speed cameras are rather unpopular and I do hear stories of them being defaced and vandalized.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

As an aside, he mentioned that she has told him darn near 20% of all drivers we see on the road in Washington these days have suspended licenses. That sounds high to me. If it's really anywhere close to that, that alone should tell us all something about how over the top, out of control enforcement has become. I have a very hard time believing that one out of five drivers poses enough of a threat to the rest of us to actually yank their license. No way.

That does sound high but whatever the number, what would be really interesting is a breakdown based on reason for suspension - speeding / DUI / whatever.

[BAPhotowerks]

In the last decade, I've gotten more speeding tickets in Europe, in rental cars, than I have here, hands down. All cameras. And by the way, ignoring them won't help: they will trace it back to your home address, and your name will appear in passport control, etc. No fun.

Sorry Jeff, if your license is suspended, it is your own damn fault and you should not be on my roads. I'd wager more of that 20% are related to DUI than moving violations.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by RussianBlue

Well Jeff, you are just fortunate that they don't give tickets for being butt ugly (car or driver) . . .

Wow... how did you get that drool-covered keyboard working again? Or did you get a new one and cover it in plastic this time?

Originally Posted by BAPhotowerks

In the last decade, I've gotten more speeding tickets in Europe, in rental cars, than I have here, hands down. All cameras. And by the way, ignoring them won't help: they will trace it back to your home address, and your name will appear in passport control, etc. No fun.

Yeah, I've racked up a few of those as well. Fortunately, my company thinks I'm such a swell guy that I can simply expense them. Most rental companies just add it to the bill.

Originally Posted by BAPhotowerks

Sorry Jeff, if your license is suspended, it is your own damn fault and you should not be on my roads. I'd wager more of that 20% are related to DUI than moving violations.

Oh, I agree - I don't want anyone driving anywhere near me with a suspended license, either. Not because I think that necessarily indicates they are bad drivers, but more because their insurance no longer covers them. If one of them tags you, you're "it" - on your own. I suppose that's what my "uninsured motorist" coverage is for, but still...

And I still think if the numbers are really anywhere near that high, that it indicates more of a problem with over-the-top enforcement than actual drivers. For the life of me, I just cannot believe that on any given day up to 20% of those sharing the road with me are unfit to do so. I just don't see it.

[bonkers]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

And I still think if the numbers are really anywhere near that high, that it indicates more of a problem with over-the-top enforcement than actual drivers. For the life of me, I just cannot believe that on any given day up to 20% of those sharing the road with me are unfit to do so. I just don't see it.

Really?

The average Seattle driver is:
- scared ****less of anything other than a straight road or a 90-degree turn with a stop light
- totally ignorant of what's going on around them
- utterly incapable of participating in a clean merge... one car, one car, one car, it's that fricken simple.
- brake happy.. tap tap tap tap for no good reason

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Yikes, Steve - ten year suspension??!! Holy shee-it. That seems pretty damn hard to justify for an accumulation of what they term (at least up here) as "non-criminal infractions". I'm not sure what the particulars of Oregon law might be, but in Washington, that classification essentially means there is no burden of proof whatsoever placed upon the accusing officer. If he says ya done it, ya done it... end of story. We are absolutely unable to contest on evidence of any kind; the only way to win is on some procedural or book keeping technicality. A ten year suspension is far too much to risk at that level of infraction, with such a low (non-existent) requirement for evidence of any kind. Yikes...

Yikes is right. Oregon passed some somewhat draconian traffic laws over the years (but they still treat DUI drivers with kid gloves) in an effort to keep the worst scofflaws off the road. Since traffic violations became infractions instead on class 3 misdemeanors, one has no appeal or real recourse in traffic court with a bogus ticket. As they say in Las Vegas terms, "the House gets the push",........

As an aside, he mentioned that she has told him darn near 20% of all drivers we see on the road in Washington these days have suspended licenses. That sounds high to me. If it's really anywhere close to that, that alone should tell us all something about how over the top, out of control enforcement has become. I have a very hard time believing that one out of five drivers poses enough of a threat to the rest of us to actually yank their license. No way.

Driving while suspended here in Oregon is a Class C felony; serious stuff, and an incentive not to do that (for most honest people). Most of the folks caught DWS had multiple DUI's so its a good thing to try keeping this types off the road.

[Rusty Heap]

Too Funny Higgins.

Poke Gehlsen in his eyes anyways for me...........BUT you gotta tell him it's from me or it doesn't count.

I'm serious, do a serious Laryy Moe and Curly poke his eyes out, twin fingers, doink doink doink.......okay you can fake it till you get within 6" of his Jay Leno jaw line, but the last 6" inches are your call.

tell him I said howdy, and I pissed in his concrete garage floor while pouring the mud for him.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by bonkers

Hey now, Jeff's car is not butt ugly. You'll hurt its feelings...


Last I knew, they also handed out points for speeding tickets.

Correct.

Any ticket from GATSO's, laser systems or the average speed camera system (with auto number plate recognition, which also ties into the DMV and flags you if you don't have current inspection ("MOT"), insurance, tags ("road tax") or vehicle is registered to a "person of interest") are precisely the same as being stopped by Plod, in terms of points and insurance implications.

Originally Posted by bonkers

I believe that just three tickets was enough to suspend your license.

3 points per ticket, 12 points they take the license away.

Dunno where Jeff is getting his information, but it's highly suspect.

[Gunter]

Hmm................Interesting.

bonkers:
"The average Seattle driver is:
- scared ****less of anything other than a straight road or a 90-degree turn with a stop light
- totally ignorant of what's going on around them
- utterly incapable of participating in a clean merge... one car, one car, one car, it's that fricken simple.
- brake happy.. tap tap tap tap for no good reason"

We have them here too; City-driving sucks.

Speeding with US plates in Canada?
You'll get a ticket, no points and it doesn't follow you across the border.
Mail/pay the fine and that's it.

Speeding in the US with Canadian plates?
Mail/pay the fine, nothing follows across the border.

HOWEVER, anyone with DUI (Or for any other criminal offense) will not be allowed into Canada and visa versa, even if it's 20+ years old.

I have no sympathy for stupid or criminal drivers not observing speed restrictions in School Zones, Pedestrian areas, etc.

Surprisingly, there are people with 5-6 or more DUI convictions walking around free, both, in the US and in Canada. Why ?? Why are they not locked up??

What do I hate most? Tail-gaters! Especially those agressive Pick-up trucks with Giga-tires right on my a**.

To stay out of the system, I recommend a valid Drivers License, Insurance and Tags (Plates) plus attention to the surroundings.

For some spirited driving, NE Oregon, Fossil-Shaniko and area couple times a year is A1; very little traffic except July/August.

May/June and Sept./Oct. is best.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Gunter

For some spirited driving, NE Oregon, Fossil-Shaniko and area couple times a year is A1; very little traffic except July/August.

May/June and Sept./Oct. is best.

Having just returned from a weekend of "spirited driving" in that area, I have to agree 100%. The roads are wonderful and the traffic is non-existent. It's the one area within reasonable driving distance in which we can still enjoy our cars in the manner in which they were meant to be enjoyed.