Porsche Classic 10w-60 Motor Oil

[WP0ZZZ]

This would be a fun poll to run:


Why do you think Porsche has deliberately changed their recommended viscosity rating to 10W-60 for the SC-3.2-964-993?

• With 10W-60 oil, engines will break more often and they will be able to sell more parts/service.
• It's all run by marketing and they just picked a random grade.
• Someone at Porsche thought that 20W-50 for all aircooled engines would be too boring so they specified 20W-50 for the older aircooleds and 10W-60 for the newer.
• Based on their experience, 10W-60 is the modern oil that currently works best for the SC-3.2-964-993.
• Other. Please specify.

[smokintr6]

A lot of interesting thoughts in this thread.

I would guess Porsche could care less either way if the engines lasted or didn’t last. It’s probably more of an annoyance to keep making old parts, rather than a money maker.

I doubt they do any real R&D for the old engines, but I’m guessing they supply the oil to their restoration department.

To bill’s point any immediate discovery of less oil leakage needs to be tempered by the fact that it may take 10s of thousands of miles to discover that the new oil is causing a friction problem. So to say “I ran xx oil for years, and switched to zz oil this summer and it’s great” is of very little meaning in the cosmic scale.

To also be Bill’s counter point; I highly doubt the oils sold today that have the same label as the oils in the service manual have much in common with the oil in the parts store 40 years ago when my 911 rolled out of the dealer. The spec requirements have certainly changed, for better or for worse. The sad truth is that for most vintage 911 owners and the way they operate their cars combined with the lifetime expected miles.... I bet any oil higher than 0w from the parts store would do just fine. It may trash the engines after 100k miles, but no one is going to find out. Anecdotally, I run Amsoil 20w50 high zinc in my fresh engine and brad penn 20w50 in my 100k plus mile engine. I have not lost a wink of sleep over it. If a case of Porsche classic fell off the truck at my house I wouldn’t be afraid to try it

[hcalvani]

Yes, a lot of interesting thoughts, good discussion, and along the way I am even slightly harassed by a Forum Moderator, but I still have not gotten an answer to the initial post!

[manbridge 74]

Consider a longer observation period including over the winter and several changes.

That said, I bet I’ve probably changed out 55 gallons of oil for PC 10w60 in various cars, some multiple times. The leaks/seeps/smoke seem about the same.

[SalParadise]

This oil is a complete marketing ploy. Porsche has no refinery that I know of, and to add to that 10w is too thin for any old car. The amount of research that Porsche engineers did to this oil is probably 0% - with the PR department and marketing making up the other 100%. I don't know what it costs, but I am sure it's several dollars more than any off-the-shelf VR1 or other.

Glad it works for you. Who knows, your engine may like it better for all we know.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by smokintr6

A lot of interesting thoughts in this thread.

I would guess Porsche could care less either way if the engines lasted or didn’t last.

Yes, think of the decades long IMS debacle - and this doesn't even use motor oil to lube it.

They don't care. They just want to sell more crap to the old guys who are just getting into the hobby - the guys who moved up from a Boxster or Cayman and are now getting into the old cars.

Oil preference is common sense. 10w60 is a stretch and has been fashionable since several Italian motorcycle manufacturers and Ferrari started using it in the early 2000s. I never, ever run it in my Italian bikes. Ever. 20/50, or if I cannot get that, 15w40. My cars and bikes seem to last forever (engine wise).

[hcalvani]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

Consider a longer observation period including over the winter and several changes.

That said, I bet I’ve probably changed out 55 gallons of oil for PC 10w60 in various cars, some multiple times. The leaks/seeps/smoke seem about the same.

Yes, that is a good suggestion, and thanks for sharing your observations regarding the ~55 gallon changes of the PC oil.

Perhaps I just spoke to soon, but I think that even if I take detailed notes for years, indicating a consistent positive trend towards the usage of 10w-60 (even corroborated by oil analysis results!), there would still be strong opinions on the subject. Nevertheless, I will certainly keep a close eye on this.

Cheers,

Humberto-

[Nick Triesch]

I don’t think Porsche is trying to make a bunch on our old air cooled cars. I really think the people who made our cars know best. Did you know that the great sports car company now sells more SUV’s than the 911 now? I’m going to believe Porsche over the backyard P car dude. Let me see your chemical engineering degrees! I bet the folks at Porsche have them . They have German accents to boot.

[hcalvani]

Ja, Raumschiff ....

I fully concur...And it is just not chemical engineering - across multiple areas of engineering.

For one, Porsche's knowledge and application of systems engineering is absolutely top notch!

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by hcalvani

I fully concur...And it is just not chemical engineering - across multiple areas of engineering.

For one, Porsche's knowledge and application of systems engineering is absolutely top notch!

Yeah! That's the exact reason I'll never, ever install a headlight relay or fuse on my gauge lights, footwell blowers or AC fan. If Porsche designers never did, then why would I deign to suggest that I know better?

Please take note of my sarcasm...

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

Yeah! That's the exact reason I'll never, ever install a headlight relay or fuse on my gauge lights, footwell blowers or AC fan. If Porsche designers never did, then why would I deign to suggest that I know better?

Please take note of my sarcasm...

So well said! KUDOS

[manbridge 74]

All makes have design flaws.....

[hcalvani]

Exactly, thanks, Jeff!

Canada Kev and uwanna, I think you need to sell your Porsche cars, and get into another marque - you would be a much happier customer! Let me know when you plan to sell them so that I help you resolve this problem

I will take the '68 911 Coupe (in Orange!) any day! Never mind, that one is long gone.... ;(

Cheers,

Humberto-

[WP0ZZZ]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

Yeah! That's the exact reason I'll never, ever install a headlight relay or fuse on my gauge lights, footwell blowers or AC fan. If Porsche designers never did, then why would I deign to suggest that I know better?

Please take note of my sarcasm...

Funny thing is that Porsche people now think that 10W60 is the best viscosity for late aircooled engines. It would be great to know why they think so but we don't seem to have a clue.

I opened a thread a while ago that shows how a 908 from the Porsche Museum has a sticker on the oil cap saying 10W60 which seems to indicate that Porsche puts their money where their mouth is:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/989732-10w60-aircooled-porsches.html

[hcalvani]

Thanks for the feedback and link, WP0ZZZ.

I will contact Porsche Classic this week (in Germany) and ask. I will report back with the findings.

Cheers,

Humberto-

[RSBob]

Haven’t switched to Classic 10/60 for the 3.0s from this:

[Canada Kev]

You guys are too funny.

I have no opinion on these oils that Porsche have presented in some cool metal cans. That's why I haven't tendered such on this topic. I'm basically sitting back and taking a wait and see position on this product.

The 10/60 is in the acceptable range as indicated in the owner's manual that was printed in the '80s for my car. So is the 20/50 which is also sold in the cool metal can. So we have some nostalgia for those guys who remember the old cans you had to pierce with the spout to get the oil out. Fantastic. Score one for the marketing department.

One of those Porsche oils is synthetic, one is mineral. I'm not about to open up a synth vs. dino debate, but I think that to have the viscosity range of the 10/60, a synthetic blend would likely be required.

Perhaps this oil is great for the older air cooled cars, and I hope it is. I haven't seen any scientific evidence that shows its wear properties are at least as good as Brad Penn or M1 or VR1. That sort of information will take many months or years to accumulate. Has anyone done a Blacktone analysis on a virgin sample of this oil? The fact that Porsche isn't providing any specific information about the formulation troubles me somewhat. Why wouldn't they proudly proclaim it, especially knowing the crowd that might use this stuff?

Anyway, as I said, I have no substantial opinion on this oil. If it works to your satisfaction, that really is great. I hope you get many years of service because of it. And I applaud the OP and others who share their experiences, whether good or bad.

BUT, the reason I stepped into this new oil melee is the rose coloured glasses fan boy stuff that people post where Porsche can do no wrong. When they give you some of the P-brand Koolaid, you drink it up like you just walked across the desert because your horse died of thirst.

Porsche makes mistakes. All auto makers do. They contradict themselves in manuals, screw up common sense things (HL relays, fusing, IMS, etc). Just because they slap their sticker on the packaging does not make it the next better thing.

Perhaps Porsche spent hundreds of hours and piles of money testing this oil on air cooled engines from 2.0 through 3.6, but I doubt it. It's likely just re-packaged Castrol or Mobil. And that's OK. I have no complaint about that.

Things change and I'm all for newer and better technology. The chemical and mechanical engineers back in the sixties could only imagine stuff like modern synthetic oil with a viscosity of 10w60. But for me to use this in my engine, I'd want some more information than what is written on the can.

So before someone goes on and on about the engineering prowess of the vaunted Porsche machine, think about it first. Just because they say so, doesn't make it true. Try it, test it, converse with fellow users, share your experiences, then form your opinion. Don't act like sheeple; go in eyes wide open.

[hcalvani]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

So before someone goes on and on about the engineering prowess of the vaunted Porsche machine, think about it first. Just because they say so, doesn't make it true. Try it, test it, converse with fellow users, share your experiences, then form your opinion. Don't act like sheeple; go in eyes wide open.

Oh, really....What a concept. Sigh....(As a trained skeptic - Astrophysicist and Systems Engineer for NASA - that never occurred to me

Everything was great until those last three lines.

[RSBob]

Kev,

Cool oil can aside, not to mention the not so subtle innuendo that many are just mindless shills for buying said can with no regard for contents; my good friend and Porsche air cooled mechanic of 45 years, sent said oil for independent analysis as he does periodically with all the oils he puts in his customers air cooled cars, and this oil rated as one of the top three across perameters of thermal break down, lubrocity, zdp level, detergents, etc. if the shiny can works for him and the many Unobtanium priced classics I could only dream of owning, it certainly works for me.

Now where is that Valvoline sale going on?

[manbridge 74]

I think an independent test was run by a German magazine but I couldn’t read it. The Porsche oil was high up in the results.

I heard that when Porsche used to recommend Mobil 0W40 it was because the Euro formulation was different than the 0w40 in the US. No idea if it’s true but the BMW guys have shown the German Castrol is an entirely different oil than US oil so it is possible....