Seeking sage advice on project direction

[DCAlbarran]

Ok, first of all thanks for taking the time to read/respond. I am trying to make this project work, but I am limited on knowledge and skill, and am reliant on the brain trust here to help point me in a good direction.

The car: 1968 912. Not numbers matching, 5 speed trans, big bore kit, rebuilt within the last 5 years/10k miles or so.


I have been happy with it, but I sold my 993 to get it (and some other stuff), and miss the power. So I want to put a 911 engine in it.

I know there are people out there who think this is bastardization, blasphemy, a waste of money, just save up and buy a 911, and I get that, but this car has sentimental value to my kids and I, and I want to keep it.

Having said that, I’d like to stick with the 902 trans that I have, so power should be something a 902 can handle.

Last year I bought a 2.2 engine out of a 911E, attached to a 902 trans, that came out of what I remember as being a car that was in a front end collision. It sat on a pallet for some time, and it’s in my garage now begging to be used. I am not sure if it still runs, but I am going to do a leak down on it in the next week or two and see where I am at. This is a complete engine/trans with starter etc. all the way to the heat exchangers. Weber carbs. Again, I don’t know for sure if this was a running engine when it was pulled, but I’d like to see if I can get it running before I tear into it, or have it torn into.
We will call that option 1.




Now, I was given a ballpark figure of 23k to have this engine rebuilt. That was way more than the 10-15k I was figuring. I have seen many running, recently rebuilt engines floating around for anywhere from 12k on up, though I don’t recall the vintage. I wonder if I would be better off connecting this engine up with someone who is looking for a 911E engine, and buying something that’s already running or rebuilt, since I don’t have an allegiance to any particular engine, whether it be T, E, L, etc. We can call this option 2.

Ideally, I’d end up somewhere in the ballpark of 180-210hp that is useable on a daily basis, running pump gas, is reliable, will have good longevity, and sounds great. I know I’ll need an oil tank, cooler, new motor mounting points, and some other goodies too, and I’ll get to that eventually, but for now I’m just trying to figure out if I should use this engine I’ve got, or keep looking for something else.

Thanks for your time.

-Danny in Simi Valley

[juanbenae]

does the motor turn over by hand at all or is it frozen up? id have to assume if you are planning a leakdown you must have confirmed it turns? something like marvel's mystery oil or even a bit of motor oil in each cylinder before attempting to turn it is advised if not done already. too much oil could skew your leakdown efforts, but enough to mist the cylinders and rings would be good.

if there is little to no evidence of the case leaking tear the top end down, pull the rods to see what the bearings look like, then determine if the case should be split. a top end with the heads redone, updated/fresh tensioners, a top end reaseal, rod truing and bearings and having the webers looked over might be closer to that 15-17K if the cams P&C need simple touch ups.

[DCAlbarran]

Originally Posted by juanbenae

does the motor turn over by hand at all or is it frozen up? id have to assume if you are planning a leakdown you must have confirmed it turns? something like marvel's mystery oil or even a bit of motor oil in each cylinder before attempting to turn it is advised if not done already. too much oil could skew your leakdown efforts, but enough to mist the cylinders and rings would be good.

if there is little to no evidence of the case leaking tear the top end down, pull the rods to see what the bearings look like, then determine if the case should be split. a top end with the heads redone, updated/fresh tensioners, a top end reaseal, rod truing and bearings and having the webers looked over might be closer to that 15-17K if the cams P&C need simple touch ups.

Thanks for the quick reply. Yes, the motor turns by hand. I really would like to do the engine work, or a large portion of it, by myself if I end up keeping this lump.

[Evans, Marv]

The guy I take my car to said a rebuild is around $10K. I don't know if he was painting a rosy picture or not, but I wasn't asking about a rebuild cost for me so I took it as a general statement for a mag case engine.

[timmy2]

Drop a good 3.0 in there with some SSI’s and a nice muffler for the HP you are looking for.
It will be a lot less $$ in the long run. Adding EFI will really make it sing.

Sell the 2.2E motor to someone with an E.

$23k for a rebuild?? Sounds really high to me.

[Norm01]

Sell the engine and get a Polo, you’ll then have something really special.

[jac1976]

I like the suggestions by timmy2 and Norm01. Search YouTube for the Polo motor and the performance and sound will pry your wallet open.

[Matt Monson]

2.2e is a great little engine. I've got one in my 75 911 and it's plenty to move the weight of an early car. I would take the one you have and rebuild it. Budget $10-12k to DIY. It will be another $5-8k labor to pay someone else to do it. Get Wayne's book and dive in. Keep driving the car while you do.

[Coastr]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Drop a good 3.0 in there with some SSI’s and a nice muffler for the HP you are looking for.
It will be a lot less $$ in the long run. Adding EFI will really make it sing.

Sell the 2.2E motor to someone with an E.

$23k for a rebuild?? Sounds really high to me.

Best advice so far.

You said you wanted a reliable 200hp. Ergo you want a 3.0. Add ITBs and EFI for looks, sound and more power.

[DCAlbarran]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

2.2e is a great little engine. I've got one in my 75 911 and it's plenty to move the weight of an early car. I would take the one you have and rebuild it. Budget $10-12k to DIY. It will be another $5-8k labor to pay someone else to do it. Get Wayne's book and dive in. Keep driving the car while you do.

This was my original idea, and it’s what I’m leaning towards.

Originally Posted by Norm01

Sell the engine and get a Polo, you’ll then have something really special.

Those are even more expensive! And I’ve seen and heard them, they are pretty great.

Originally Posted by timmy2

Drop a good 3.0 in there with some SSI’s and a nice muffler for the HP you are looking for.
It will be a lot less $$ in the long run. Adding EFI will really make it sing.

Sell the 2.2E motor to someone with an E.

$23k for a rebuild?? Sounds really high to me.

Wondering if I could still use my 902 with that? I don’t want to modify the rear seats or anything as they will be used

[Matt Monson]

I wouldn't recommend running a 3l engine against a 901 gearbox (902 is a version of 901 gearbox). And you do NOT want to go through the brain damage of a 915 in a SWB car.

[timmy2]

Hey Matt,
Just curious, can a 901/902 handle the 180-200 hp he wants from the 2.2?

[Discseven]

Danny... call George. 305-588-0874. Talk engines with him. I think he has a few. You can do much better than $23. He's world-class Porsche guy (who doesn't know it.)

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by juanbenae

something like marvel's mystery oil or even a bit of motor oil in each cylinder before attempting to turn it is advised if not done already.

+1 Tilt the engine up. 1/2 Marvel, 1/2 Kero/Diesel in each cylinder. Let it set for a couple days. Repeat. Flip engine other side up. Repeat.

I don't know what the cylinder material is but the last thing you need is a stuck ring in a land when doing a leakdown/compression test.

That engine would be a fun little stinker (in the favorable way).

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

+1 Tilt the engine up. 1/2 Marvel, 1/2 Kero/Diesel in each cylinder. Let it set for a couple days. Repeat. Flip engine other side up. Repeat.

I used compressed air in the spark plug hole after adding the MMO to a frozen 2 stroke dirt bike I was fiddling with at one time. the air, in theory got the oil to mist and coat the entire cylinder more effectively. it worked but the motor still had to come down as the reed valves were shot and sticking with simple hand turning the motor so we never tried to even start it..

[Trackrash]

Maybe I'm living in the past, but you should be able to freshen up that motor for a LOT less than 10K. I would think $5-6K IF you do all the work.

That said, leave the 912 as a 912. If you want to keep the car keep it a 4 cylinder. There are options out there that won't require a new mortgage. Like a T1. They are easily capable of around 200hp.

That 2,2 E motor is one of the best motors Porsche ever made. At our (PCA Redwood) last AX there were two 2,2 Es. Honestly they screamed. Embarrassed a lot of new watercooled stuff.

Honestly a 2.2 E in a SWB car would be awesome, but I would bet you would ultimately regret putting a 6 in that 912, IMO.

Also, by putting a big bore set of cylinders on that 2,2 you can easily see 200hp.

I would look for a roller for that 2,2.

Here is a 912 with a warmed up 1750 that turned more than one TTOD. Unfortunately lost to the fires.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Hey Matt,
Just curious, can a 901/902 handle the 180-200 hp he wants from the 2.2?

It’s not horsepower that matters, it’s the torque. Look at the power curve on a 210hp 906 spec 2l versus a stock Euro spec SC.

[Wayne 962]

Here's what I'd recommend. Since you don't have information on the condition of the engine, I would get more info. See if you can find someone who has a chassis that has the engine out temporarily and see if you can "borrow" the chassis to install the engine so that it can be run. Shouldn't take more than an afternoon - you don't need to bolt up any axles or clutch cables, etc - just fuel, electrics and oil lines. Then run it after dumping some Marvel into it. Let it warm up and run a leakdown and compression test when it cools down enough to not burn yourself.

I'm a big fan of buying used motors when they are still in the car. The next best thing is putting one back into a car to test it. There are also ways to run the engine on a stand or on a pallet, but that's a bit more difficult if you don't have spare oil tanks, lines, ignition, and a fuel system lying around.

-Wayne

[Cook&Dunning]

How about selling the car to someone who is content with the 4 cylinder. Sell the spare motor. Add the $23,000 you were going to spend on a rebuild. That will give you a somewhere in the ~$45,000 - $50,000 range. Buy a nice 911

[80targa36]

To follow Wayne's point, I think you can swap your pallet motor & trans into your 912 without too much issue? Turn it over by hand some and then see what happens. Being just a crash motor that supposedly ran, you might be surprised...

23K is way too high. Years ago, i bought my freshened up 3.6 varioram for 12. Not gonna work well with a 902, but as a reference point.

Also, to be frank if you can't figure out how to get the swap motor running, maybe you would then decide a full swap with rebuild isnt for you. Finally, a bit of advice from a dad... you can keep the hierloom drivable for your young ones one day with the 4 cylinder. Let them take you for ice cream... something I can never do with my 300+ hp car...