Seeking sage advice on project direction

[porsche930dude]

I would clean it, put it in the car and worry about its problems as they come up. But im cheap.

[DCAlbarran]

Originally Posted by Wayne 962

Here's what I'd recommend. Since you don't have information on the condition of the engine, I would get more info. See if you can find someone who has a chassis that has the engine out temporarily and see if you can "borrow" the chassis to install the engine so that it can be run. Shouldn't take more than an afternoon - you don't need to bolt up any axles or clutch cables, etc - just fuel, electrics and oil lines. Then run it after dumping some Marvel into it. Let it warm up and run a leakdown and compression test when it cools down enough to not burn yourself.

I'm a big fan of buying used motors when they are still in the car. The next best thing is putting one back into a car to test it. There are also ways to run the engine on a stand or on a pallet, but that's a bit more difficult if you don't have spare oil tanks, lines, ignition, and a fuel system lying around.

-Wayne

Some extra info: there’s a local guy who sells cars that has a ‘70 911E that is complete except for the engine. It is supposedly rust free, and has been sitting, but maybe I could see if I could get this motor into it and try that. Were I to sell this motor and buy another, my preference would be to buy one already installed, just like I would sell my 912 engine to someone who could drive it first.

Originally Posted by Cook&Dunning

How about selling the car to someone who is content with the 4 cylinder. Sell the spare motor. Add the $23,000 you were going to spend on a rebuild. That will give you a somewhere in the ~$45,000 - $50,000 range. Buy a nice 911

Selling the car would be a blow to the family, as this has become a fixture of the garage, and to be honest, I really do love this little rat, just want some more giddyup.

Originally Posted by 80targa36

To follow Wayne's point, I think you can swap your pallet motor & trans into your 912 without too much issue? Turn it over by hand some and then see what happens. Being just a crash motor that supposedly ran, you might be surprised...

23K is way too high. Years ago, i bought my freshened up 3.6 varioram for 12. Not gonna work well with a 902, but as a reference point.

Also, to be frank if you can't figure out how to get the swap motor running, maybe you would then decide a full swap with rebuild isnt for you. Finally, a bit of advice from a dad... you can keep the hierloom drivable for your young ones one day with the 4 cylinder. Let them take you for ice cream... something I can never do with my 300+ hp car...

I can swap it, but need motor mounts relocated, and an oil tank. I’d like to keep the 912 driveable as is for as long as possible. Also, although the prospect of doing a rebuild like this myself, I feel excited at the prospect, not overwhelmed. Yes, I’d love to see my kids driving this car one day.

Originally Posted by Trackrash

Maybe I'm living in the past, but you should be able to freshen up that motor for a LOT less than 10K. I would think $5-6K IF you do all the work.

That said, leave the 912 as a 912. If you want to keep the car keep it a 4 cylinder. There are options out there that won't require a new mortgage. Like a T1. They are easily capable of around 200hp.

That 2,2 E motor is one of the best motors Porsche ever made. At our (PCA Redwood) last AX there were two 2,2 Es. Honestly they screamed. Embarrassed a lot of new watercooled stuff.

Honestly a 2.2 E in a SWB car would be awesome, but I would bet you would ultimately regret putting a 6 in that 912, IMO.

Also, by putting a big bore set of cylinders on that 2,2 you can easily see 200hp.

I would look for a roller for that 2,2.

Here is a 912 with a warmed up 1750 that turned more than one TTOD. Unfortunately lost to the fires.

Love that car!

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by 80targa36

23K is way too high. Years ago, i bought my freshened up 3.6 varioram for 12. Not gonna work well with a 902, but as a reference point.

Your engine would be in the 20s today. People need to stop making "years ago" value references to engines and rebuilding. If you haven't paid for this stuff in the last 12-18 months your numbers mean nothing. The market has changed that much. Half the posts in here about cost and value have no basis in the current market and mislead the OP.

[SalParadise]

In my opinion you have absolutely no business in doing a Porsche project of this magnitude with a 1 1/2 year old in diapers (as seen in pic). Forget it. Sell it.

I know. I bought one that was a lot less ambitious than yours and it's gone very, very slowly in five years. Where's the time? Where's the energy?

Sell it. Buy something with an engine already in it - that runs. Trust me, the next ten years are going to go very quickly. The days are long, the years are not.

I thought I'd be much farther ahead. I am now happy now, as my 9 year old now turning 10 soon is very much into 911s and is onboard with learning about flat-sixes. We'll see. I'm in no rush now. But remember, I got this car when he was three.

[DCAlbarran]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

In my opinion you have absolutely no business in doing a Porsche project of this magnitude with a 1 1/2 year old in diapers (as seen in pic). Forget it. Sell it.

I know. I bought one that was a lot less ambitious than yours and it's gone very, very slowly in five years. Where's the time? Where's the energy?

Sell it. Buy something with an engine already in it - that runs. Trust me, the next ten years are going to go very quickly. The days are long, the years are not.

I thought I'd be much farther ahead. I am now happy now, as my 9 year old now turning 10 soon is very much into 911s and is onboard with learning about flat-sixes. We'll see. I'm in no rush now. But remember, I got this car when he was three.

Yikes. Again, I am not interested in selling the car. It runs great and is is fine shape, I am not in a rush to get this done, but I am ready to embark on the journey, even if it takes a while. The boys love to play around in the garage, and they love to ride in the car.

What I was looking for was some advice on whether or not I oughta keep the 2.2 that O have and get it to work, whether that takes $5k or $15k, or sell it, take whatever proceeds I get from that and the eventual sale of the 912 engine I have in it, and buy something that is already running well.

I figured if I can get maybe $6k for the E engine, and maybe $4-5k for the running 912 engine, that oughta be a good chunk of what a running engine would cost, or embark on the refresh/rebuild of the E engine, and use the 912 engine proceeds to help fund that (after the fact, of course, so I can drive it on the interim). I figure it’s gonna cost $3-5k to get it in, mounted, oil tank purchased and mounted, oil cooler and lines run etc once the engine is squared away.

Are my numbers way off?

[Matt Monson]

Do you weld? The biggest part of it is getting the 911 mounts put in. The rest is mechanical that any decent wrench can do.

[Trackrash]

Even if it would not be my first choice, a SWB 2,2 E would be a sweet ride. I guess if 912 prices go stupid you could always put it back.

I guess your real challenge will be whether you are going to do the wrenching on the 2,2. Then if you could find an honest, competent, experienced mechanic that you can trust, to help with the details of the motor you would be way ahead of the game.

The biggest question mark with this motor is the bottom end and case. The conventional wisdom used to be that the 2,2s weren't too hard on the cases. But with not history on the motor it is a crap shoot for sure.

If it was my motor I would pull the top end and the rods. If the rod bearings look good, great, don't split the case. The issue with these motors is with the cylinders, they will probably need work. If they are in spec and there is not corrosion from sitting, you have won the motor lotto. Realistically they will need to be bored or plated. The 2,2 heads are also rather robust, but plan on at least new guides, a good valve job and possibly new valves and machining the sealing surfaces.

That shouldn't break the bank if you can do all the wrenching, otherwise like has been mentioned probably a hunk of change to have a pro do all the work.

[porschetub]

Originally Posted by porsche930dude

I would clean it, put it in the car and worry about its problems as they come up. But im cheap.

I agree that's all I did with my 2.2,stripped it down to a longblock replaced all gaskets and seals,inspected chain cases and fitted tentioner collars,reset valve clearances after checking rocker gear,resurfaced valve covers etc.
MY engine had no history except for a comment" it was running prior to removal" ,I did notice it had been apart and presumed a top end build had been done @ some stage.
It started easily after sitting for 18yrs,lots of smoke and soot but then settled with great oil pressure and no strange noises......this proved you can get lucky.

[targa72e]

I don't think it is too hard to build a test stand to verify the engine can run and condition. I built the stand in the pics below before putting this fresh rebuild in my 914. 2x4 and and deck screws with some wheels so I could move it around, total cast around $20. I used the oil tank that was going into the 914 (you will need to get on to do your conversion). Looks like your engine has carbs so easy to get a electric pump and regulator with correct pressure. I used a motorcycle gas tank I borrowed from a friend but was going to use a small boat tank. All the electrical you need for it to run is for the ignition and some jumper wires for starter.As many have said if you lube the cylinders up well and rotate. Crank engine until you have oil pressure ( can measure with multi meter if you don't hook up gauges). Run it for a while and then check leakdown.







john

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by DCAlbarran

Yikes. Again, I am not interested in selling the car.

You have a 912. You bought a 912. You want a 911. A 911 is not a 912. So I would sell the car and buy a 911. It makes no sense to do this conversion, rebuild an engine to turn a 912 into a 911. You should sell the core engine, sell the 912, take the money and buy a 911. It really makes no sense to hold onto something that is something that you do not want, but think you want, and in the end it will neither be a 911 or a 912.

Either keep a 912, sell it to someone who wants a 912 (there are lots of people), sell the engine to some guy who wants one for his E, and buy 911 which you should have done in the first place.

Your numbers really, at the end of the day, add up to nothing. I have seen lots of people go down this road only to realize, as I have said, they should have gotten a 911 in the first place.

[porschetub]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

You have a 912. You bought a 912. You want a 911. A 911 is not a 912. So I would sell the car and buy a 911. It makes no sense to do this conversion, rebuild an engine to turn a 912 into a 911. You should sell the core engine, sell the 912, take the money and buy a 911. It really makes no sense to hold onto something that is something that you do not want, but think you want, and in the end it will neither be a 911 or a 912.

Either keep a 912, sell it to someone who wants a 912 (there are lots of people), sell the engine to some guy who wants one for his E, and buy 911 which you should have done in the first place.

Your numbers really, at the end of the day, add up to nothing. I have seen lots of people go down this road only to realize, as I have said, they should have gotten a 911 in the first place.

Think the OP has comited to a 6 conversion regardless,unsure why he would want to sell up and buy a 911,if the 912 is a good tub why not ?,engine mounts done ,oil tank and lines etc,even the motor in stock form rebuilt if needed with provide a handy fun driving experience and as mentioned the sale of the 4 cylinder will offset a top end rebuild @ least.
Good luck.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by porschetub

Think the OP has comited to a 6 conversion regardless,unsure why he would want to sell up and buy a 911,if the 912 is a good tub why not ?,engine mounts done ,oil tank and lines etc,even the motor in stock form rebuilt if needed with provide a handy fun driving experience and as mentioned the sale of the 4 cylinder will offset a top end rebuild @ least.
Good luck.

As we have seen, there are some 912 conversions that have brought big money. But there are merits in keeping a 912 a 912. There is no shame in this. It is possible to build a 912 engine with very little mods to make 130hp (this engine might even make close to this, as it has a big bore kit, etc). This would be enough as it would be a lighter car. The 912 engine I believe weighs 150 pounds less than a 911 engine.

I am just saying that these ideas are great and all, and I can see where people lead themselves down this path and it can become a headache. The car becomes worth less. The OP even originally said he has limited knowledge and skill. Why not learn everything there is about 912s and cherry it out? Go through the suspension, brakes, tunnel lines. Make it safe and clean.

He can do whatever he wants. It just seems like a false economy when clearly the car has other needs. You could sell the E engine, go top-to-bottom on the brakes and suspension, then maybe new paint, and have a very nice safe car.

It just seems like a lot of hassle when the car is already running and it is able to be enjoyed. It seems you could increase your skill level with basic mechanics and have fun with the car, than saying "Lets throw a questionable engine into a questionable chassis, and see there that leads because It's cool and I need the extra 40 horsepower."

It's all I have to say.

[DCAlbarran]

Thanks for the input. Again, I am not selling the car. I am going to put a 6 in it. I do not care about the value to anyone else but my family and I, however my funds are not unlimited and I want to be smart with my spending within the confines of this build. I will be moving forward with the sorting of this 2.2E engine, hopefully it doesn’t need a complete rebuild, but if it does, those are the dice I rolled.

I am excited to embark on this journey, and I am happy to be able to keep the car running for the majority of the process.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by DCAlbarran

Thanks for the input. Again, I am not selling the car. I am going to put a 6 in it. I do not care about the value to anyone else but my family and I, however my funds are not unlimited and I want to be smart with my spending within the confines of this build. I will be moving forward with the sorting of this 2.2E engine, hopefully it doesn’t need a complete rebuild, but if it does, those are the dice I rolled.

I am excited to embark on this journey, and I am happy to be able to keep the car running for the majority of the process.

Bravo. I think it's a great idea.

If it were me, I wouldn't even bother with a test stand or putting it in another roller to start it. I would get Wayne's book and embark on a top end rebuild. If it needs bottom end, then cross that bridge when you come to it. Take a year or two to get it done right. Involve the kids in the process and keep driving the car in the interim.

This will also let you figure out what is going on with it. An E would have been MFI and it is converted to carbs. It may be as simple as just the carbs or they may have made changes internally to the engine like cams and/or pistons. A top end job will let you figure that out and make sure it is what you want. If you're going to put this engine into your "forever" car, make it yours.

[DCAlbarran]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Bravo. I think it's a great idea.

If it were me, I wouldn't even bother with a test stand or putting it in another roller to start it. I would get Wayne's book and embark on a top end rebuild. If it needs bottom end, then cross that bridge when you come to it. Take a year or two to get it done right. Involve the kids in the process and keep driving the car in the interim.

This will also let you figure out what is going on with it. An E would have been MFI and it is converted to carbs. It may be as simple as just the carbs or they may have made changes internally to the engine like cams and/or pistons. A top end job will let you figure that out and make sure it is what you want. If you're going to put this engine into your "forever" car, make it yours.

Thanks. As this also came out attached to a 902 trans, I am curious what other changes we done. I’m gonna get started in November, hopefully. I’ll start a thread somewhere and keep you guys updated.

[theenico]

I'm in the "It's your car, just do it" camp.

I'm looking forward to the new thread and next phase of this project.

[Matt Monson]

Do you have the total type number of the gearbox? Most were just early 901 or 912 gearboxes. However the 902/5x boxes were special ratio race boxes.