lifting the car

[david.avrahami@]

1987 Carrera,
I have to redo my Valve adjustment. The car has already fresh oil and filter. I read that some of you will lift the car on one side to avoid draining the oil and do adjustments on one side only and then switch sides...which means mounting the back wheel etc.
Others are saying to lift the whole back of the car, secure it and drain the oil to be used again once the adjustment has been done. (some say that oil does not require draining..)
My first concern is the side lifting safety.
my second concern is oil spill (I do have the ROTHSPORT oil valve installed in the S hose) .
your opinions and experiences will be appreciated.

[T77911S]

jack the back of the car up.
place a pan under one side of the engine under the valve cover.
remove the valve cover.
not much will come out, but then I never fill mine completely.
then do the other side.
just leave the pan under there while doing the valves

one thing that can help is don't let the car sit for several days as more oil will drain back into the engine.

[Jp-oh]

I pulled a lower valve cover off to check a stud and so little oil came out I didn't even have to add any. I had both sides jacked up.

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally Posted by david.avrahami@

My first concern is the side lifting safety.
.

Originally Posted by T77911S

jack the back of the car up.....

I think he want's to know how to lift it safely. That seems to be his primary concern.

I never have found a definitive answer on this, myself. Consensus seems to be all over the map.

[Black968]

Originally Posted by david.avrahami@

1987 Carrera,
I have to redo my Valve adjustment. The car has already fresh oil and filter. I read that some of you will lift the car on one side to avoid draining the oil and do adjustments on one side only and then switch sides...which means mounting the back wheel etc.
Others are saying to lift the whole back of the car, secure it and drain the oil to be used again once the adjustment has been done. (some say that oil does not require draining..)
My first concern is the side lifting safety.
my second concern is oil spill (I do have the ROTHSPORT oil valve installed in the S hose) .
your opinions and experiences will be appreciated.

To lift from the side, aircooled 911's have a plastic plug in the bottom side of each rocker panel. Remove plug and insert a jack plate (available here through Pelican) Fiqure 3 in link below. Both wheels can be removed by jacking the car from this center point. See below for other safe lifting points.


https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/101_Projects_Porsche_911/01-Jacking_Up/01-Jacking_Up.htm

[Locker537]

I don't like taking short cuts. Personally, I would either accept that you should drain the oil and do it prior to the valve adjustment or treat this as an experiment and pull the valve covers and see if it makes a big mess.

Worst case scenario, you end up draining the rest of the oil because you are unsure how much you lost and end up putting fresh oil in. Personally, I would drain the oil into a CLEAN container and reuse it, topping off with brand new oil. I would have enough oil on hand for a full oil change in case I dropped something in the oil or tripped on the CLEAN container spilling it everywhere...

After experimenting with different ways to lift a vintage 911 with a jack and support it with jack stands, I've found I prefer one method the most.

1) Jack the rear of the car using the engine as the lift point. I use a hockey puck on the jack lift pad and place it forward of the sump plate.

2) Support the rear of the car by placing jack stands on the rear torsion bar covers. I place a rag between the U-shaped jack stand and the cover to avoid any additional scratching.

3) Jack the front of the car using a 2x4 cut to fit between the forward A-arm mounts placed on the chassis. The 2x4 is to distribute the load and not damage the chassis. Mine is dented from someone using a bottle jack at some point in time.

4) Support the front of the car by placing jack stands on the chassis, directly behind and inboard of the rear wheels. I use small blocks of wood placed on the inside of the seam weld to distribute the load and not further dent the floor.

I was trying to avoid using a jack on the engine case and placing jack stands on the floor for awhile. I instead was using the rocker jack point with a jack tool and trying to place the front jack stands on the A-arm mounts. What I found was jacking from the side made it harder to get the car to a proper working height and felt unsafer as the car would be leaning significantly to one side during the lifting process.

I now use the method I stated above consistently.

[porsche930dude]

I have 4 homemade ramps its just 2 4x4s and a 2x8. Works great for getting under there without jacking up. Also makes it much easier to jack up once on the ramps. I use them 3/4 of the time when working under cars

[david.avrahami@]

Locker 537, why are you lifting back and front? for valve adj. back will not be enough?

[sugarwood]

For the record, I jacked up one side, and the car was tilted, and only a few drops of oil came out when I loosened the valve cover.

[Locker537]

Originally Posted by david.avrahami@

Locker 537, why are you lifting back and front? for valve adj. back will not be enough?

I'm confident lifting just the back of the car for a valve adjustment is enough. I wanted to share my complete thoughts.

If I need to work under the car at all, I will tend to lift both front and rear as it provides more space under the car. I also find it to be more stable.

[fanaudical]

When I did my valves mid oil change, I lifted one side with the rocker panel jack point, put my homemade ramps under both wheels on that side, and set that side on the ramps. Repeat for the other side. Very minimum oil loss.

[david.avrahami@]

Fanaudical, do you mean that you set one side on your home made ramps and remove the valve covers with minimal oil loss? and ...once you finish adjusting that side and putting back the valve covers, you then brought the car down, remove the ramps and went and did the same on the other side??
If so...the lifted side had the wheels on...so how could you adjust the valves on that side?

[fanaudical]

Yes, I think you understand correctly. And yes, the wheels were still on the car. I found plenty of room to access the valve covers and rockers under the car with the wheels on. (I have a narrow G body car with a 2.7 and SSI's.)

[david.avrahami@]

fanaudical, with the wheels on...interesting... how tall are your romps?

[fanaudical]

Only about 5 inches - Of course, I'm working under the car on my back / side while lying on a piece of foam...

[Walt Fricke]

Locker
Why do you jack up the rear with the jack forward of the sump cover (for the older 911s that have a cover)? That puts a bending load on the engine/transmission assembly. I'm pretty sure the assembly can withstand this load, but why? If I want both rear wheels up, but don't need the fronts up, I jack from the rear of the assembly, just forward of the motor mount. Or from the rear motor mount. This means the load path goes up to the chassis through a minimum lengthwise distance, and minimizes it. Besides, it is quicker and easier to locate the jack.

I don't bother with a hockey puck, being willing to accept the odd scrapes and gouges, but nothing wrong with a puck as long as you are extra careful about fore/aft movement until you get the jack stands in place.

Though none of my 911s have had the oil line from the scavenge side run across the back, the way the stock system had it from somewhere in the 2.7 era.

When I've replaced broken exhaust rockers or springs at the track, I've jacked the side involved way way up, jack stands fore and aft, and gotten to work on the affected side. A rag on the exhaust header deals with the few oil drops. I've done the same when checking lash, since the engine is dead cold and oil has had some time to accumulate, and there are those pockets which are a bit below the return tubes. But sounds like one can get away with less mess. The Rothsport one way valve ought to prevent the oil level in the sump from rising above the return tubes.

Lifting the whole side (jack stands up front under the front of the A arms) keeps the oil from pooling forward in the cam carrier spaces.

[Locker537]

Originally Posted by Walt Fricke

Locker
Why do you jack up the rear with the jack forward of the sump cover (for the older 911s that have a cover)? That puts a bending load on the engine/transmission assembly. I'm pretty sure the assembly can withstand this load, but why? If I want both rear wheels up, but don't need the fronts up, I jack from the rear of the assembly, just forward of the motor mount. Or from the rear motor mount. This means the load path goes up to the chassis through a minimum lengthwise distance, and minimizes it. Besides, it is quicker and easier to locate the jack.

I don't bother with a hockey puck, being willing to accept the odd scrapes and gouges, but nothing wrong with a puck as long as you are extra careful about fore/aft movement until you get the jack stands in place.

Forward of the sump cover is safe and sturdy. Aft of it is likely just as safe, and you make a good point. I suspect, barring actually conducting the static analysis, moving the jacking point the 6 inch fore or aft won't make much a difference.

That said, if it can be done better, do it better. I'll give it a try.

[911pcars]

At the last Rennsport Reunion in Monterey, I asked a tech (Gunter) who was showing PAG's reproduction 962 engine cases. I asked his opinion of lifting a vehicle from the crankcase.

He said, No.

Think about it. In a typical 911, there's about 1500 lbs of rear weight concentrated at that suggested engine lift point. I announced a 1500 lb challenge a few years ago:

Place a 911 short block on a hydraulic press, sump side up. Aim the hydraulic ram at the suggested lift location, then apply 1500 lbs of force - with or without dial indicators and/or strain gauges positioned at strategic case locations, and with any number of phone books, hockey pucks, shop rags, wood planks or other intermediary "cushioning" materials between ram and case. No takers yet.

Until then, it's an unproven, perpetuated procedure . I've seen vintage factory photos of 911s lifted at the engine, but I'd rather listen to Gunter. YMMV.

Sherwood

[Locker537]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

At the last Rennsport Reunion in Monterey, I asked a tech (Gunter) who was showing PAG's reproduction 962 engine cases. I asked his opinion of lifting a vehicle from the crankcase.

He said, No.

Think about it. In a typical 911, there's about 1500 lbs of rear weight concentrated at that suggested engine lift point. I announced a 1500 lb challenge a few years ago:

Place a 911 short block on a hydraulic press, sump side up. Aim the hydraulic ram at the suggested lift location, then apply 1500 lbs of force - with or without dial indicators and/or strain gauges positioned at strategic case locations, and with any number of phone books, hockey pucks, shop rags, wood planks or other intermediary "cushioning" materials between ram and case. No takers yet.

Until then, it's an unproven, perpetuated procedure . I've seen vintage factory photos of 911s lifted at the engine, but I'd rather listen to Gunter. YMMV.

Sherwood

What is your suggested alternative? Factory jack points with Jack tool?

[911pcars]

If using a floor jack, I use the tedious method of using a jack insert into the rocker receptacle, then lift each side in turn, then placing jack stands under the rear torsion bar covers or torsion bar housing.

I've often used the gearbox crossmember after lifting one side high enough to slide a floor jack into place. Just in case, I leave the floor jack (or equivalent) in place and especially if working solo.

Sherwood