Suspension: rubber necessary?

[Driven97]

Unless it's an actual race car where it's only goal is the time on the clock, rubber is the best, IMO.

I've had worn out rubber, poly, delrin, and now back to fresh rubber on my (70% autocross) car. Wasted a lot of money and effort.

Poly binds and/or squeaks.
Delrin transmits notable vibration. And eventually squeaks.
Rubber just works. I didn't experience a notable loss of precision going back to rubber, either. While it's conceivable something would show up on the lap timer, it's not worth it for me.

Or, to put it another way, there's a real good chance you're unhappy if you go with something other than rubber. There's a 0% chance you are unhappy with fresh rubber.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Driven97

Unless it's an actual race car where it's only goal is the time on the clock, rubber is the best, IMO.

I've had worn out rubber, poly, delrin, and now back to fresh rubber on my (70% autocross) car. Wasted a lot of money and effort.

Poly binds and/or squeaks.
Delrin transmits notable vibration. And eventually squeaks.
Rubber just works. I didn't experience a notable loss of precision going back to rubber, either. While it's conceivable something would show up on the lap timer, it's not worth it for me.

Or, to put it another way, there's a real good chance you're unhappy if you go with something other than rubber. There's a 0% chance you are unhappy with fresh rubber.

+1

I'd just add that sport rubber bushes are available for a tad more precision w/o losing anything else

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Driven97

Unless it's an actual race car where it's only goal is the time on the clock, rubber is the best, IMO.

I've had worn out rubber, poly, delrin, and now back to fresh rubber on my (70% autocross) car. Wasted a lot of money and effort.

Poly binds and/or squeaks.
Delrin transmits notable vibration. And eventually squeaks.
Rubber just works. I didn't experience a notable loss of precision going back to rubber, either. While it's conceivable something would show up on the lap timer, it's not worth it for me.

Or, to put it another way, there's a real good chance you're unhappy if you go with something other than rubber. There's a 0% chance you are unhappy with fresh rubber.

I totally agree. Maybe a real professional racer will notice the difference and have better lap times. For 99% of the autocrossers out there it is pointless. Unless you like noisy suspension.

My goal was to refresh my rubber bushings, and have a car my wife will still ride in that is a blast to drive.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by donbecker1234

Hot on the heels of my “Coilover regret” thread, I have another question for the Pelicans.

On the original 911/930 suspension, there are several places with rubber (a arms, spring plate, shock towers, trailing arms, etc).

Just how necessary is it for these to be rubber as original to still have a comfortable ride?

I’ve seen and heard many conflicting opinions on this and would love to hear some more.

Going through some of these upgrades right now. I was advised by a reputable shop here in LA with my larger torsion bars, adjustable sways, upgraded struts and the other bits going into my suspension refresh, to go with new rubber bushings. I was told the ride will already be stiffer with the new components and switching out the rubber bushings would really make the car uncomfortable to drive on public roads.

While I can't confirm this is the case, it definitely seems the bushings have a considerable effect as this was the only component I was "warned" about changing when it came to maintaining some level of ride comfort.

[Danimal16]

I replaced my 11 year old poly bronze on my 71 911 last summer.
Loved it when I first put it it. Far better suspension than I was a driver (by a long shot).
Loved it when I replaced it with Elephant rubber.
I do not miss the noise, squeaks and most of all the maintenance.
IMHO, if you are not going to track the car, stay with the rubber.

[2jmotorsports]

Somewhere in this forum's archives is probably a list that contains:

*List of parts to keep as OE rubber for street comfort:
*List of parts to replace with (poly, teflon, bronze, whatever) to extract signficant performance or steering feel gains:

Because among the numerous aftermarket parts available there are probably quite a few that offer good bling for the buck but very little bang for the buck unless you are doing serious constant track duty.

Im going down this learning path too as I am still riding on my old stock worn out suspension. I plan to rebuild for a balance of street comfort and canyon driving with occasional autocross/track use.

[RWebb]

the easy way to figure this out is to go to Chuck's site - Elephant Racing - and pick a package based on your type of driving (and wife)

old rubber bushings need to be replaced regardless of mileage - this car had 700 miles on it:

[smadsen]

Don: I didn't notice much difference in the ride quality 30 y/o rubber vs. polybronze, other than it was quieter. But new rubber would prolly have been just as quiet. I believe what we would define as ride quality is more a function of torsion bar spring rates and shock absorbers. The twisting of the rubber bushing prolly provides some "spring" function as they must ultimately "wind up & unload", but I doubt it's measurable except at extreme compression or droop. In either of those circumstances you're no longer concerned with ride quality since your either flying or bottomed in a New York pothole.

When I changed to polybronze I don't believe OEM replacement rubber bushings were available, so the point was kind of moot.

[donbecker1234]

Thanks for all of the candid input. Since my chassis is somewhere around the 220k mark (with original tie rod ends) I’m planning now to replace the entire suspension and will go with rubber to start based on the feedback from this thread. Starting with the stock rubber means I’ll have a decent baseline to firm the car up if I’d like to in the future.

[kium]

I'm also at the point of buying a full set of bushes (front and rear) for my car.
Very interesting to hear that rubber bushes are still the right option for most 911

So OK, rubber is the stuff I want now, but after watching ER's video doing the famous comparision with Brand-X rubber bushings, what brand should I go for?

ER is out of my budget
URO doesn't seem to be OEM dimensions (correct me if I'm wrong), according to them for an easy fit without special tools

Is there a brand or quality that is OEM in size, hardness and durability and still at reach for the DIY mecanic to install?

[donbecker1234]

I’ve since changed opinions and am now going with the rebel racing solid rear bushings to start.

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by donbecker1234

I’ve since changed opinions and am now going with the rebel racing solid rear bushings to start.

Do you mean their RSR bushings? What was the reason you changed your mind?

[donbecker1234]

Originally Posted by Canada Kev

Do you mean their RSR bushings? What was the reason you changed your mind?

Yes, my ultimate goal is to go with the adjustable KW shocks which I think it a better option than trying to iimprove ride via rubber in the suspension.

[ClickClickBoom]

I would suggest that you ask for a few rides in cars with the different possible suspension combos.
I have RSR front and rear, monoballs everywhere else, along with Eibach ARBs. The only thing I noticed is more road noise transmitted. I fix that with a M&K GT3 style muffler hanging on SSIs. The handling improvement is well worth it to me. You gotta decide what is acceptable for you, sitting in the passenger seat will allow you to observe and evaluate. This is the classic “what is the best ice cream/bourbon/whiskey” etc. Come to SFO and I will take you out for an hour on all kinds of roads. I am sure plenty of guys in your area would offer up rides. Guys just wanna show off their toys.

[donbecker1234]

Click, I think you’re running revalved Bilsteins from ER?

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by donbecker1234

Click, I think you’re running revalved Bilsteins from ER?

Read my threads....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/926798-suspension-upgrade.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/790692-quick-ratio-911-rack.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/781662-monoballs.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/735639-corner-balance.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/714678-84-carerra-set-up.html

[donbecker1234]

Have before, will revisit. I remember that the quick rack was pretty cool.

[DennisMenace]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

+1

I'd just add that sport rubber bushes are available for a tad more precision w/o losing anything else

Do you refer to 85 Shore rubber?

[Mike Andrew]

I just went thru a complete suspension refresh on my 80 SC. Over the past few years, I noticed a decline in ride quality and some clunks developing on our fine IL roads. I knew it was time and bit the bullet.
After discussions with the shop and research here, I selected ER "stock" rubber. Also replaced the 30K mile turbo tie rod ends, ball joints and Bilstein struts and shocks. The drive home convinced me that my choice was correct; clunks are gone ( time to chase the rattles that I can now better isolate). Handling is more precise and the ride is greatly improved.
They saved the removed parts and I examined the rubber. It was not overly/rock hard or cracked but had hardened appreciably. Of more interest was the ovality that had occurred and allowed things to move about, likely creating the clunks as things moved in ways that they shouldn't.
Had ride height set a half inch below "Euro".

Just my $.02 basedon my experience.

[Tom F2]

My 73 Targa has 21mm front torsion bars, 26 mm rear, Weltmeister plastic trailing arm bushings, Neatrix spring plate replacement rubber, Elephant polybronze front control arm bushings, and Bilstein sport (yellow) dampers. I love the car, don't like the ride, am not impressed that handling is better either.

I have always been happy with mostly stock suspensions on other torsion bar 911s I have owned and driven over the past 35 years, never felt a need to change from stock specifications except, sometimes, shocks and sway bars.

I want to go back to mostly stock. I read Pelican nearly every day, but I rarely, if ever, see anyone advocating for stock suspension bushings. Am I missing something?

What is the consensus on front control arm and rear spring plate bushings? Do I need to buy new factory parts, or are the replacements available today just as good? I tried the Neatrix rear spring plate bushings around 15 years ago, and I was unhappy with them. They were quickly just as egg shaped as the 30 year old originals I removed.