Hall sensor EFI madness

[flyingz]

I have read most of this and other AEM related ITB threads.
I have the rasant cam/crank setup with 60-2 wheel on my 78 3.0 hot rod.
9.8 JE pistons, SSI's, 964 cams, Triumph ITB's on custom manifolds. AEM series 5 ECU. Bosch COP's.

Can not get past the crank errors.
It will sync with little errors but I had to go wasted spark and semi-sequential no longer using cam sensor.

The timing sync wizard does not work. decent spark sometimes when locked at 0 deg but not solid and looks to hunt and move around.
Nothing I am happy about.
AEM support is telling me to attempt a start but that sounded horrible.
I will not move on until I get some kind of solid sync with a timing pulse that is good solid and stable.

Reading way too many opinions that this set up and the Infinity computer are not the way to go. Lots of time invested getting all the wiring in and sensors installed.
Wanted a reliable set up I could tune to take advantage of cams and pistons and just hate the look and feel of CIS. I enjoyed it this past summer but decided to go ITB.
Is there a better crank/cam sensor that will work with this ECU?
Even a hall sensor to replace mine on this setup?

Steep learning curve ahead but tempted to bail and go carbs...............

[winders]

Originally Posted by flyingz

Can not get past the crank errors.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/10995119-post17.html

Change over to a reluctor sensor…

[Tea Tray]

Given you’ve tried several methods of grounding the shield wire with no change noted then I will just ask if the shields are grounded at one or both ends. IIRC, shields ground at one end only and having said that I can’t point to a single time where a change or repair in shield “integrity” fixed or caused a problem.
Your “waveform looks good then goes crazy” tells me there is a physical change happening and you might try tapping around the various sensors/ connectors/ components with the back of a medium sized screwdriver. Tap lightly then progressively harder while watching waveforms.
I can’t tell you how many times the tap-tap method and a scope saved the day.

[mikedsilva]

Originally Posted by flyingz

I have read most of this and other AEM related ITB threads.
I have the rasant cam/crank setup with 60-2 wheel on my 78 3.0 hot rod.
9.8 JE pistons, SSI's, 964 cams, Triumph ITB's on custom manifolds. AEM series 5 ECU. Bosch COP's.

Can not get past the crank errors.
It will sync with little errors but I had to go wasted spark and semi-sequential no longer using cam sensor.

The timing sync wizard does not work. decent spark sometimes when locked at 0 deg but not solid and looks to hunt and move around.
Nothing I am happy about.
AEM support is telling me to attempt a start but that sounded horrible.
I will not move on until I get some kind of solid sync with a timing pulse that is good solid and stable.

Reading way too many opinions that this set up and the Infinity computer are not the way to go. Lots of time invested getting all the wiring in and sensors installed.
Wanted a reliable set up I could tune to take advantage of cams and pistons and just hate the look and feel of CIS. I enjoyed it this past summer but decided to go ITB.
Is there a better crank/cam sensor that will work with this ECU?
Even a hall sensor to replace mine on this setup?

Steep learning curve ahead but tempted to bail and go carbs...............

Flying Z, I had a really similar experience. Pretty sure I posted my findings on here somewhere.
Weirdly, when I first fitted my AEM Rasant system, it was easy and rock solid.
Then I pulled the motor months later, to swap cams. Didn't touch anything else.
Car started and drove etc.. but it got harder and harder to start... then sometimes would not start at all. Strange issue.. almost like at the first start after changing cams, it didn't "know any better"... but each time after starting, it got worse and worse.. I kept getting cam timing errors every revolution.

Lots of help from people here, AEM techs and locally too.. I borrowed an oscilloscope, read the waves.. saw tboth sensors were working.. ending up relocating the cam sync trigger till it found a spot it was happy with. Car started up and was perfect ever since.
How did I get it right in the first place? I dunno.. beginners luck I guess.

If you do want to sell your system cheap, hit me up. Also, I'm interested in a couple of your cis components... AAR and decel valve if it's the old style...
Cheers
Mike

[wallra]

Originally Posted by flyingz

I have read most of this and other AEM related ITB threads.
I have the rasant cam/crank setup with 60-2 wheel on my 78 3.0 hot rod.
9.8 JE pistons, SSI's, 964 cams, Triumph ITB's on custom manifolds. AEM series 5 ECU. Bosch COP's.

Can not get past the crank errors.
It will sync with little errors but I had to go wasted spark and semi-sequential no longer using cam sensor.

The timing sync wizard does not work. decent spark sometimes when locked at 0 deg but not solid and looks to hunt and move around.
Nothing I am happy about.
AEM support is telling me to attempt a start but that sounded horrible.
I will not move on until I get some kind of solid sync with a timing pulse that is good solid and stable.

Reading way too many opinions that this set up and the Infinity computer are not the way to go. Lots of time invested getting all the wiring in and sensors installed.
Wanted a reliable set up I could tune to take advantage of cams and pistons and just hate the look and feel of CIS. I enjoyed it this past summer but decided to go ITB.
Is there a better crank/cam sensor that will work with this ECU?
Even a hall sensor to replace mine on this setup?

Steep learning curve ahead but tempted to bail and go carbs...............

I don't know If this will help with the sync but I thought I would post this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzH-IccEik0&t=15s

['78 SC]

Flying Z, I had a really similar experience. Pretty sure I posted my findings on here somewhere.

mikedsilva

FYI, here is a link to the thread mikedsilva mentioned.

[mikedsilva]

Originally Posted by wallra

I don't know If this will help with the sync but I thought I would post this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzH-IccEik0&t=15s

good video

[winders]

He is having crank errors, not cam errors….

[OSC911]

It seems from reading the posts that the Infinity ECU is common thread? I have the Rasant cam/crank sensor and a Motec M84 but still in the install stage. Hopefully the Motec will be OK.

[winders]

Originally Posted by OSC911

It seems from reading the posts that the Infinity ECU is common thread? I have the Rasant cam/crank sensor and a Motec M84 but still in the install stage. Hopefully the Motec will be OK.

I have a 60-2 flywheel and use a sensor at the flywheel instead of using the crank pulley. I am using a MoTec M130. I found that the hall sensor worked during tuning but had to switch to a reluctor to get the car to run in the real world.

[al lkosmal]

I've also had better luck with VR sensors than Hall sensors.

[winders]

I used the RaceGrade M DHALL HS230, two of them, actually. Neither worked well. I switched to a RaceGrade M 4-APX-001 and have not had a problem since....

[flyingz]

Success!!!
I used a scope to look at Cam and Crank sensors at the sensor, then again at the ECU connector. Perfect square wave, 12 volts going to 0 at every tooth.
That was after rerouting trigger wires to coils etc with no change.

I am using the Bosch 986 221 024 COP's. My instructions were to run sig ground #2,from coil to ECU, Power, sig and engine ground #4, from each of 4 leads.
Found a thread where a guy tied signal ground to case ground for these coils with great luck. I tied sig ground and case ground, #2 to #4 and dam if the sync cleared up and the spark was dead on and solid.
tied all that way and sync'd timing.
Went to start and nothing.

Then found the advice to turn Cam sensor a tooth and on first try, engine started right up. So excited to have it running again.

Runs very rich but already better that my CIS on starts.
Now my O2 sensor is next, stuck at 14.7 no matter what.
Using the onboard controller Series 5 infinity with LSU 4.2 Bosh sensor.

Love the advice here, the best.
Though I'd share some pics too..

[al lkosmal]

Congrats!...sanitary install and nice looking ride!

[flyingz]

Thanks Al and thanks for the support.
Little wire harness clean up to do now that I have it running an all. Scheduled to have it on dyno for tuning and “training” in a few weeks.

[pampadori]

I have been running my coils with both grounds going to the nearest 10mm bolt for the shroud for 5 years without any issues. Glad to know that made things work better for your setup!
I want to say that Andrew at Rasant told me to do it that way back when. Enjoy the victory and press on! I still think my efi/itb project was one of the most rewarding automotive things I've ever done.

[flyingz]

Last word on this, on Dyno we achieved 210 HP and 195 Torque. Running 315 rear tires
Main thing is how smooth and quick throttle is. Extremely happy.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by mikedsilva

Flying Z, I had a really similar experience. Pretty sure I posted my findings on here somewhere.
Weirdly, when I first fitted my AEM Rasant system, it was easy and rock solid.
Then I pulled the motor months later, to swap cams. Didn't touch anything else.
Car started and drove etc.. but it got harder and harder to start... then sometimes would not start at all. Strange issue.. almost like at the first start after changing cams, it didn't "know any better"... but each time after starting, it got worse and worse.. I kept getting cam timing errors every revolution.

Lots of help from people here, AEM techs and locally too.. I borrowed an oscilloscope, read the waves.. saw tboth sensors were working.. ending up relocating the cam sync trigger till it found a spot it was happy with. Car started up and was perfect ever since.
How did I get it right in the first place? I dunno.. beginners luck I guess.

If you do want to sell your system cheap, hit me up. Also, I'm interested in a couple of your cis components... AAR and decel valve if it's the old style...
Cheers
Mike

Glad you got the timing set so the engine reliably starts!!!

Just to confirm, you're using the Rasant sensors (Hall cam/crank) & wiring with an AEM system;



Did you receive base fuel and ignition maps to start the engine once the timing was aligned via the AEM Wizard?

[mikedsilva]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

Glad you got the timing set so the engine reliably starts!!!

Just to confirm, you're using the Rasant sensors (Hall cam/crank) & wiring with an AEM system;

Did you receive base fuel and ignition maps to start the engine once the timing was aligned via the AEM Wizard?

hi
yes, I used the Rasant cam/crank unit with the 2 hall effect sensors and the AEM Infinity 506. The entire kit was purchased from Rasant. It originally came with a base map which was then customised for my motors specs.
But the base map worked fairly well.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by mikedsilva

hi
yes, I used the Rasant cam/crank unit with the 2 hall effect sensors and the AEM Infinity 506. The entire kit was purchased from Rasant. It originally came with a base map which was then customised for my motors specs.
But the base map worked fairly well.

Thanks Mike for a fast reply. Your various posts here on Pelican Parts have been very helpful in obtaining knowledge about the Rasant system integration and setup.

I found these two key videos on how the base timing is setup. Did you use the AEM Wizard? Given the AEM system design, it appears that using the Wizard is a minimum requirement
to obtain a base timing. Do you agree?

AEM - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzH-IccEik0&t=15s

Although this is a Motec setup, it's basically like a AEM setup;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVwTVaxwG4