Irrational fear of car catching fire :(

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

Scary moment when car was new to me. Started the car after winter storage at a friends garage. Car had sat for ~4 months. I foolishly hopped in and cranked without building oil pressure. Didn’t turn over on first or second try. Car roars to life on the third but thick smoke clearly seeping into cabin from the engine bay. I grab the extinguisher and race to the rear and definitely smoke but no visible fire or source. It was a burned metallic smell, not fuel. After much probing, I notice the tail light is out and wonder whether it shorted and burned up and created the smoke and smell? Had a friend start the car while a couple of us stood ready with extinguishers and nothing.

To this day, I wonder what that was. Was I smelling the folly of not properly waking the car up from its slumber? How sinister could that smell have been?

Was the engine mounted fresh air blower on?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/934718-electrical-smoke-interior-blower-1986-3-2-a.html

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Gideon911

My wife just yelled from the other room.."what is so funny"

Nothing funny at all about someone getting burned in a gas fire, you Ahole

[Gideon911]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Nothing funny at all about someone getting burned in a gas fire, you Ahole

He was able to laugh looking back on it. he even made a joke and wrote lol. Bill is awesome, I'm glad he's ok. Could have been worse. It was just funny the way he wrote it..

[Gideon911]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Funny if it's someone else LOL

How I managed to get the air fuel ratio perfect under the car I don't know but it sure ignited everything around from the electrical spark when I connected the terminals. Small fires all over the place from the fuel shot out of the pump. Boss on the Monday said "What the hell have you done to your face." didn't help either.

That must have been terrifying in the moment. Bizarre how that happened. Glad you're ok Bill

[Bill Douglas]

LOL thanks guys. I was fine. Hair grows back. It was more a case of how could this happen so badly. Ah, fire extinguishers are your friend.

[sugarwood]

Another general reaction since I've also felt this anxiety at times in the past. Driving a 30+ year old car is not for everyone. Some are predisposed to extreme caution or OCD control need. OP may feel more secure and happy in a modern car.

[Schulisco]

Here's such a horror story from last august in northern Germany on the Autobahn - thankful not mine, but still a horror story for every historic 911 owner all over the world :

https://www.bild.de/regional/hamburg/hamburg-aktuell/porsche-oldtimer-verbrennt-auf-a7-112-hier-brennt-ein-911-77284132.bild.html

No Google translation available. I translate it separatedly:

Schleswig-Flensburg district – At the dealer, a nine-eleven Porsche from 1976 costs at least 50,000 euros. Depending on the weight, you might get another 500 euros for this one at the scrap dealer...

The A7 southbound on Wednesday at 7.46am. At the level of Tarp (Schleswig-Flensburg district), the silver sports car with the Schleswig H license plate catches fire!

112, HERE IS A 911 BURNING! ("112" is the german version of "911" emergency phone number)

Luckily, the driver (58) notices in time, can steer the car onto the hard shoulder and jump out uninjured. Because there are already high flames coming out of the engine compartment!

Two volunteer fire brigades are quickly on site, but they cannot get the fire under control. That's why the professional fire brigade from Flensburg comes with a special fire blanket.

One lane of the Autobahn towards Hamburg was closed for more than three hours, the Porsche is a total loss.









Further reading with more photos:
https://www-bos--inside-de.translate.goog/historischer-porsche-brennt-auf-a7-vollstaendig-aus-berufsfeuerwehr-flensburg-unterstuetzt-mit-spezieller-loeschdecke/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The problem is - especially on the earlier CIS engines up to '77 are made of magnesium instead of aluminium and because magnesium quicker catches fire and those magnesium fires are pretty hard to extinguish...that's why the '76 911 was a total loss: It took more than 2 hours of work of the firemen until the fire was extinguished and the car could be towed from the site...

On my SC i did and still do the following:

1. Replaced all old, awful looking rubber fuel lines with fresh ones and with higher temperature and pressure specs than on common cars
2. always carry a fire extinguisher within the car (foam ABC, not a tiny one)
3. after working on the engine with dismantling of fuel lines - make a long test drive and always carry a huge fire extinguisher with me extra
4. in the days after the work on the fuel lines before the next ride I touch all fuel hoses by hand to feel if there's something wet (which is fuel for sure)
5. if there are some torque values given by Porsche for the fuel lines I make sure to keep them

I'm thinking of having a fire sensor unit in the engine compartment with a alarm horn in the cockpit...but I didn't find any proper yet

I thought of mounting a system like the https://proteng.com/ system in the engine compartment. But never did it yet because it would help only in the first seconds of a fire and furthermore it gives a false sense of security. But there's not that much more security without such a system, because you're won't get warned if it's releasing and so the problem might be hidden until a bigger fire afterwards...and then you need a real big fire extinguisher...

Thomas

[Bill Douglas]

I've got a normal sized extinguisher behind the passenger seat, but have this small - very capable one in the glove box for very quick access. It's what the forestry workers carry and bought from a chainsaw shop.

[thetorch]

Originally Posted by Schulisco

I thought of mounting a system like the https://proteng.com/ system in the engine compartment. But never did it yet because it would help only in the first seconds of a fire and furthermore it gives a false sense of security. But there's not that much more security without such a system, because you're won't get warned if it's releasing and so the problem might be hidden until a bigger fire afterwards...and then you need a real big fire extinguisher...

We have an expression for this sentiment: Making perfect the enemy of the good.

or as Robert Watson-Watt said "Give them the third best to go on with; the second best comes too late, the best never comes."

[hannu_911]

Originally Posted by Discseven

Extinguisher used in my case: Element. Fuel fire was out in roughly 3 seconds. (No damage to wiring. Plastic cap below the air sensor sagged.) Second unit in hand is in the event the first unit shuts off and there's a reignition of fuel. Fire started from a pinhole in the cross-over hose from the dampener to the regulator near #6. Under pressure, there's a good volume of fuel exiting even a pin hole. Element = highly recommended. My advice is to get 3 of them and use one to see how it works. Seems like a waste but point is: knowing what to expect of this extinguisher should it be needed is priceless. Element's are not particularly good on an open fire. But a fire in an enclosed space like our engine bays... terrific. There is some discharge residue but it's inconsequential given the mess made from the melting insulation.

I've heard a lot of good about Element.
I have had those on my Pelicanparts shopping basket few times, BUT no shipping options to Europe

Does anyone know any European source for Element?
I have understood that they are made in Italy but I have not able find Italian webshop for those

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I've got a normal sized extinguisher behind the passenger seat, but have this small - very capable one in the glove box for very quick access. It's what the forestry workers carry and bought from a chainsaw shop.

What size is that handy fire ext?

[Schulisco]

Originally Posted by hannu_911

I've heard a lot of good about Element.
I have had those on my Pelicanparts shopping basket few times, BUT no shipping options to Europe

Does anyone know any European source for Element?
I have understood that they are made in Italy but I have not able find Italian webshop for those

I was also interested and asked the US boys via contact form on their US website https://elementfire.com/ for more info. They named https://fss-nederland.nl/ as the european distributor and that the product is named differently in europe as "FireStryker" but still the same product as the Element extinguisher.

The reason why they don't ship it from US to Europe is that such (pressurized) products are not allowed to be air transported. They have to be transport either on land or sea only for security reasons. But now there's a european distributor. Still confusing that the product is made in Italy but not sold there obviously...or it is also named differently anyhow...

The size of the new version FSS-50 is: Length 270mm. diameter 42mm, weight 270gr. (10,6inch long, 1m7inch thick, 0,6lbs weight)

https://fss-nederland.nl/product/fss-50new/

edit: The original italian product is named as "mangiafuoco":


A german distributor: https://www.feuerwerkshop.de/feuerloescher-mangiafuoco-fss-50::3356.html

Thomas

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

What size is that handy fire ext?

A .3kg and here are the other specs.



And here it is in the glove box.

[Quasimoto]

I have a healthy concern about fire in old vehicles as well. Enough that when we bought our first 911, I purchased a small Halguard unit for the weekend drive home.

Some years later, I've augmented the protection in the garage and the cars with the Element units. My only concern with them is that their operation is not immediately intuitive and that without a little bit of training or preparation, it's possible they could go unused in an emergency. They are easy to operate, but you do have to show people how to deploy them...

[Gideon911]

Can't believe the Element fire extinguishers cannot be shipped to CA

[sugarwood]

Can someone post a link to a USA website where you can order a small pocket fire ext.?

[proporsche]

Does anyone know any European source for Element?
I have understood that they are made in Italy but I have not able find Italian webshop for those[/QUOTE]

you can get it here in Czech....it is called Viper

https://hasicitechnika.com/c-automaticke-hasici-systemy

Ivan

[RDM]

Originally Posted by proporsche

https://hasicitechnika.com/c-automaticke-hasici-systemy

Ivan

Not Element, but still nice stuff.

[proporsche]

Originally Posted by RDM

Not Element, but still nice stuff.

yup ,as i have mentioned mr Cervinka has the patent for this kinda stuff..talked to him last year...

Ivan

[Mixed76]

A word of caution - halon, CO2, and other gaseous fire suppression systems are designed for enclosed spaces where they can exclude most of the oxygen in the vicinity of the fuel. Not saying they won't work on a small fire but you might need a big extinguisher to keep the air out of a large enough area to extinguish a fully developed gasoline fire, or where there is a breeze, fuel is going under the car, etc.

Powder exchangers work well on fuel fires and are pretty efficient for size. Yes they are messy, maybe preferable to a total loss? Premixed foam/ water works very well on a pool/ puddle of fuel or a limited spray area. They can be heavy, dunno if available in a useful size?

Main thing for any of these fires is to stop the flow of fuel, or for an electrical fire, stop the flow of electrons as Chris B. pointed out. Stopping the flow of electrons also eliminates a source of ignition so the fire doesn't relight.

Electrical fires in old 911s are generally going to be limited (as Walt pointed out) by the relative lack of combustible material; wiring insulation doesn't burn very well (as designed) and the energy source (the battery) isn't very large.

It's gasoline you want to worry about. As everyone says, make sure your fuel lines are made of the right material, are reasonably new, and aren't subject to pointy bits/ rubbing on surfaces or edges. O-rings should be fuel rated, connections tight, etc. Battery cutout to stop the fuel pump and ignition sources.

I carry 4 lb ABC dry powder extinguishers but have not installed battery cutouts.

Source: I spent >10 years designing fire protection systems for mega oil and gas projects. Offshore the main system is enormous quantities of pumped water and foam; onshore you have that plus very large powder or foam and water fire extinguishers on wheels. Halon/ CO2/ FM200 is only used in electrical or instrument rooms.