Mittlemotor twin plug distributor

[Rusty 356]

Purchased above distributor and need to understand initial setup for a 71 911 MFI motor.
Points seem to be decoration only, has Bluetooth function. How is it set up without point trigger for #1
Need someone’s input, help me get this going.
Thanking you in advance.
Rusty
Virginia Beach

[blucille]

Why not call the guys you bought it from.

It’s not terribly hard. Like any other Distribtor, you have to install it with the rotor pointing to the correct location, usually you set the motor to TDC to make this easy.

Simple wiring. Power and trigger to the cdi box. There are two lugs on the outside of the Distribtor. One fires the cdi trigger

And then in the app, you build the curve that your engine needs. Plenty of threads on 123 ignition to go over that. Or icarp will chime in for sure.

[Rusty 356]

Thanks, just never used a 123 distributor before. The twin points screwed me up.

[Rosco_NZ]

It’s just 2 distributors in one .. 2 ignition triggers firing upper and lower plugs simultaneously.

[Stretch32]

Bumping this thread.

Rusty and I are working on this engine together. There are no instructions provided in the box or on Mittlemotor’s website (at least none that I could find). I bought the distributor from Mittlemotor and when we asked for initial setup help we were told to contact TRE (I’m guessing they’re the Mittlemotor distributor on the US). Dave at TRE was helpful in getting the distributor set up for initial running even though I didn’t buy it from him.

On initial setup, we wired everything up and set the rotor to point directly at number 1 upper spark plug on the cap with the engine at TDC (with Dave’s help). I also found a twin plug distributor cap wiring diagram on the internet and used that to make sure the plugs were wired in the correct order. These distributors are sensitive to low voltage (obviously being electronic) so once we had a fully charged battery we were able to get the engine started.

The confusion I have is, the distributor is timed via the app by setting the advance curve electronically. It isn’t timed by turning the distributor like a conventional point type. There isn’t a lot of info on how best to optimize the distributor for various engines and that’s what I’m looking for.

If anyone has experience tuning this twin plug distributor or the 123.Ignition equivalent I’d appreciate any insight.

Stretch

[icarp]

One of the problems you are having is , the product was made by Mittlemotor, he realized a massive profit from the sale of the product . Mittlemotor refuses to stand by their product . Dave does his best to stand by each one he sells and is still the one doing more R&D to make them work. I have consulted with and helped TRE fix many problems . TRE is top notch.
The potential for the system is great , but only with the right R&D.

Ian

[blucille]

Hey Stretch,

Just one concern, be sure the cap diagram you wires your by is exactly the same. It’s more about the rotor used by the mittelmotor distributor than the cap itself. But they are all a little different.

[Dpmulvan]

Here you go.

[Stretch32]

All, thanks for the replies and the video.

I agree that Mittlemotor hasn’t been much help but Dave at TRE has been immensely helpful. Based on the video it looks like the factory set advance curve isn’t really much use so I’ll need to look around and see if I can find a factory Marelli twin plug distributor curve to copy / work with.

Overall, I think the Mittlemotor unit will work well, I just need to figure out how to optimize it for my engine.

Stretch

[icarp]

I have spent the last 3 years finding and correcting the faults with 123
I work for 123 usa , bought elsewhere and I can't help you

The Klassic vid is missing many problems

Ian

[Dpmulvan]

Originally Posted by icarp

I have spent the last 3 years finding and correcting the faults with 123
I work for 123 usa , bought elsewhere and I can't help you

The Klassic vid is missing many problems

Ian

Want to enlighten us? I’m in the market for a new ignition set up and was looking at the 123.

[Stretch32]

Originally Posted by icarp

I have spent the last 3 years finding and correcting the faults with 123
I work for 123 usa , bought elsewhere and I can't help you

The Klassic vid is missing many problems

Ian

Ian,

No spears intended, are you unable to help because I bought this from Mittlemotor (via Sierra Madre) and not 123 due to a business agreement?

If so, it just has me curious where Mittlemotor sources their parts to make the distributor I have. I was assuming the parts came from 123 (via some sort of business arrangement) and were put in a case that looks like a Marelli. Or if there is some sort of infringement on 123's products by Mittlemotor.

In the end, I bought the Mittlemotor unit because it looked more period correct which was what I was looking for in my engine build.

Stretch

[jpnovak]

All of the electronic distributors have the same basic setup. It is very similar to EFI.

I am not specifically familiar with the MittelMotor but initial setup will be one of 2 methods.

If the Mittlemotor has a secondary clamp on the distributor body shaft (like the 123) follow this easiest setup.
-install the distributor with rotor pointing #1 TDC (make sure crank is set to #1 TDC. When you have twin plug you have which rotor tip is connected to #1. All TP caps will have an upper and lower row of contacts and the rotor will have an upper and lower contact tip. Check carefully.
-Go into the software interface. Set the entire curve to 0 deg timing.
-connect a timing light
-crank the car. Read the timing light.
-rotate the distributor body in the clamp until the timing light reads 0. The car may start when you actually get close to zero. As long as the entire curve is set to zero you can just complete the setup at 0 deg.
-Tighten clamp when timing light actually reads 0 deg timing.
- Go back into the software and set an actual advance curve.
- tune car to match the engine using the adjustable advance curve.

Now, there are a few distributors that do not have the rotatable body and have a fixed mounting point. In this case, these will have a software offset value that you adjust up or down (+/-). In this case, you would use the trigger offset value to zero out the timing. This is how most EFI systems work.

Hope you get this sorted. Try not to make it too complicated and use the same basic tuning practices that have been used for decades.

[Stretch32]

JP,

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.

The Mittlemotor distributor can be rotated some and I basically did what you suggested at 5 degrees vice 0. I still need to figure out what sort of advance curve I need. I’m thinking the original Marelli curve or possibly a 2.2S curve that only goes to 28 degrees would be a good starting point.

Stretch

[Matt Monson]

Is Mittelmotor making these now? I haven’t paid attention to the market but from 2004-2007 I must have sold them 3 dozen Dave Jarvis twin plug units and shipped them over there. Sounds like this is now a totally different unit?

[TRE Cup]

Setting / programming the advance curve starting with the 2.2 S is a good start. Ideally using a rolling road dyno is best . But make sure your ears are well set for detonation if you are putting too much advance in the mid range.
Though you have the option to store more than one curve, it is best to have only one curve installed. icarp and a few others have encountered some bluetooth related scatter between programs. I believe this was when the driver carries their phone with the 123 app open.

MittelMotor gets the guts from 123 in the Netherlands. And the programming app is 123.nl
Once you get used to the slightly different set up, they can work quite well.

Also kudos to the JB Racing twin plug dizzy . simple set curves with the adjustable version < they use plastic inserts to set the advance. They don't have the vintage look of the Mittel Motor, but work well
Different strokes for different folks ;-)

[Stretch32]

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. I actually called you today to talk about this issue but I’d prefer to discuss it here so others can learn / benefit from the knowledge all of you have.

I do think the Mittlemotor unit is pretty nice looking and, based on the above comments, it should work well.

With regard to curves, since my engine is running right at 10:1 CR, would a 2.2S advance curve that only goes to 28 degrees be okay? The engine is basically a warmed over 2.2S (actually 2250cc) that’s running stock 2.2S MFI and DC40 cams with the higher CR.

Stretch

[Stretch32]

I found the advance curve for a 2.2S and used that as the basis of my new Mittlemotor advance curve. From the factory chart, the RPM and advance numbers are for the distributor which means (I think) these values both need to be multiplied times 2 to arrive at the engine advance / crank rpm numbers.

With that, I simply took the “S” curve (bottom of the two curves) and converted / plugged those numbers into the 123 software to create a new curve. The only modification I made was total crank advance stopping at 28* for the twin plug / high CR considerations.

Based a the chart, it seems the advance at the crank is 0* all the way to 1200 engine RPM. That seems odd to me but is that correct?

Also, to aid starting, I’d heard of people modifying the 500 RPM point in terms of advance to get the engine to start easier. To do that, would I need to advance or retard the timing (eg: 10* advance or -5* retard)?

[icarp]

Stretch,
I sent you my phone number in a pm, and got no reply.
I do not think you understand what it is that needs to be done .

Ian

[Stretch32]

Ian,

I’m sorry, I just saw the PM you sent me a few days ago this morning. I’ll call you later today when I get some time.

Stretch