|
|
|
|
| Author |
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
My '77 convertible...
I guess this is my introduction thread!
Quick backstory. Dad was a VW mechanic, so I grew up around air cooled VWs, have owned many and now own his last bus before he passed. Very familiar with Porsches as a car, but always seemed like something no one in my family could ever attain. Crazy to look at prices and really, how attainable they were back then, for them and for me in my 20s. Reconnected with an old friend a year or so ago who had a couple Porches, a newer one and an older one. Now into my 40s, this definitely sparked my interest and it only took a spin around the block to set up a few online searches and start planning how I could acquire one.... Chapter 1: Finding the car... After finding a few sitting and hitting dead ends for whatever reason, my previously mentioned buddy calls me one day to say he's going to look at a convertible 911 with a coworker and he'd let me know how it went, etc. The coworker had a small budget (under 10K) and the seller wasn't budging on his initial ask (20K). I said I could probably do 15. Silence.... Several weeks later the seller is asking my buddy again about buying it off him, he really wants it gone, needs the room, etc. Said he'd do 18. I was stuck on 15. There is some back and forth over the course of a week or so, then we go and look at it, strike a deal.... The car has been sitting for 1-2 years. Previous owner has owned the car since the 80s, but more or less mechanically inept. Car was converted from a coupe to convertible before he bought it, as well as the wide body kit. Car was worked on by John Walker for the most part. Has just over 100K on the odometer. Has some upgrades throughout, but also some other "upgrades" that will need to be removed. PO said he parked it one day and when he went to drive it, it wouldn't start, he got a new battery and it would only click. He assumed starter. He is a bit older and with how crusty the outside was, I'm guessing this has sat close to two years. Day 1: Will it start? Armed with a small wrap of tools, optimism to the moon and a check for 15K, we meet the guy, transfer the title and then get to work trying to start this thing. Fresh battery proves the clicking noise, but the motor is stuck. Backing it up in third allows the motor to turn, but when pushed back forward, it hits something and stops. That's our "clicking" noise that PO assumes in the starter. I use a phone a friend to call my brother in law who owns a small european repair shop in Seattle and he thinks maybe some rust in the cylinder is stopping a piston, but says it's tough to say without being there. We keep tinkering with it, hoping to get it to turn over completely. My optimism is all but gone and I'm already coming up with an explanation for my wife on how I could blow 15K on a car that doesn't run.  With the battery nearly dead. My buddy gives it one last attempt and it surprisingly turns over for about 10 seconds straight. Moods are restored and I may have even smiled a bit. We keep trying for about 30 minutes and then tell him we'll return tomorrow to tow it away.  Day 2: 30 miles or bust! I borrow a trailer from a friend, it has no lights as it's got a euro plug, I have no brake controller, so no brakes and after getting it hooked up, I realize there is no license plate. But the 911 needs to move today and my anxiety is to the moon. I get the trailer to the 911 in bumper to bumper traffic along South I-5 in Seattle. I back it up down his narrow driveway, somehow, almost looking like I know what I'm doing. I get everything ready as I wait for my buddy to show up and help me out. I only have a come along and we're pulling it up a slight hill and the ramps onto the trailer. This took a good hour. Pull it backwards a couple of feet, lock up brakes, readjust come along, pull a couple more feet, etc. We eventually got it on the trailer, strapped down and pulled away. A friend of my buddies even snapped a picture of us randomly driving down I-5.   So we make it to my buddies house who has graciously offered a place to store the car and work on it. He's super pumped to have a homie with a car to work on and I am as well. The trailer pulled well, traffic was surprisingly light for the hour and only had a few dumb drivers spike my blood pressure. My wife met us at his house and helped unload the car and she started to fall in love quickly, lol.  We decide to give it a quick wash to see what's under the crusty layer. Nothing fancy here, just a quick scrub. The three of us jump in and start seeing the deep purple paint under the grime. The PO said the color was called Black Cherry. He seemed to think it was an original color. Again, mechanically inept. He wanted a cool car in the 80s and that's what he got, lol. We wash 'er up and call it a night...  
|
||
05-06-2023, 01:44 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
So where are we at now?
It's been about a week. I signed up on the forums and made this post and then got caught up in the new member phase where things have to be approved, etc. Looks like we're live and I'm now several days behind. As far as we knew, this car has been more or less perfect before it started sitting, but did have some issue that prevented it from starting. The PO assumed starter. We started with spark. Seemed good. We moved to fuel. We drained the tank as best we could. The fuel inside looked like mountain dew (very green) and we siphoned it from the top of the tank as best we could. We checked the fuel pump and found out it wasn't working. We ordered the only thing available locally from napa. In the process, the banjo fitting on the fuel line was discovered to be sliced, so it was cut off and we clamped the line onto the new pump. Some sketchiness was happening, but in hopes to hear this car running. With a charged up battery, some fresh fuel and optimism running high, we tried starting it. Nothing but cranking. We double checked the hoses around the engine, suspecting a loose vacuum line. Nothing. We stumbled upon someone talking about the air sensor plate and lifting it up while the fuel pump ran. We tried that and it fired up. Not instantly and it only ran for about 2-3 seconds and then shut right off. It sounded great. https://youtube.com/shorts/ZsSaBapEUs4 We spend the next day or so, scouring threads here in these forums and basically anywhere that has a crumb of information that might help nail down what's going on here. I'm worried about the napa pump and it's associated pressure, especially with a hacked up hose. I'm not sure if it has a check valve, but, as far as I understand, that shouldn't stop it from cold starts. Something to be addressed later on for sure. I haven't removed and tested the CSV, WUR or thermo stat resistor. My next step is to address the fuel system from the front, back. Planning to remove the tank and clean it better, including the strainer. Going to address the fuel hoses at the pump. I'm not quite to the point of ordering a bosch pump, but it's part of the plan, as budget allows. The hose from the tank to the pump needs to be fixed and I'm planning to order a banjo fitting with a barbed end. I've already reached out to Len about getting a new hose made, but I'm hesitant to replace the hose based on this napa fuel pump. Any advice or ideas is much welcomed. I will be ordering a CIS gauge set later today. I saw this set mentioned somewhere and seems like a decent set to get me going. https://amzn.to/3LKudjn I realize no one will take me seriously unless I can provide reading and prove something is or isn't working and has correct pressure. Last edited by ZeroHecksGiven; 05-08-2023 at 09:06 AM.. |
||
|
05-08-2023, 09:04 AM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 4,184
|
Quote:
Sounds like yours was sitting a lot longer than 2 years to me... Or maybe it was garbage gas... Quote:
Except now the Duc won't wake up from it's slumber - and the symptoms suggest the fuel pump perhaps doesn't run after the initial prime on key "On". Which is pretty weird... Personally, I thought, for the extra $20, this was a much more versatile set - adapters for most everything - and seems to include everything needed for CIS as well. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B73XLDZJ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 Memory might be going, but I think that's substantially cheaper than the CIS-only kit I bought 10-15 years ago.. Good luck!
__________________
'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things. |
||
|
05-08-2023, 12:19 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
Quote:
And thank you for the link, I saw that slightly nicer set, but wasn't sure if it was worth it. I'll go ahead and grab that one. The 33800 one or whatever that's mentioned here often has crept up in price. Reading forum posts from like 10 years ago and it was $75 maybe and now it's nearing $150. |
||
|
05-08-2023, 12:35 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Marysville Wa.
Posts: 22,557
|
Looks like Oscar's ride.
__________________
https://www.instagram.com/johnwalker8704 8009 103rd pl ne Marysville Wa 98270 206 637 4071 |
||
|
05-08-2023, 01:06 PM
|
|
|
PCA Member since 1988
|
So far, this would make a good episode for "Roadkill Garage"! Now all you have to do is have an unreasonable deadline to drive it somewhere 500 miles or more away...
__________________
1973.5 911T with RoW 1980 SC CIS stroked to 3.2, 10:1 Mahle Sport p/c's, TBC exhaust ports, M1 cams, SSI's. RSR bushings & adj spring plates, Koni Sports, 21/26mm T-bars, stock swaybars, 16x7 Fuchs w Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+, 205/55-16 at all 4 corners. Cars are for driving. If you want art, get something you can hang on the wall! |
||
|
05-08-2023, 03:07 PM
|
|
|
|
PCA Member since 1988
|
spuggy wrote: "Sounds like yours was sitting a lot longer than 2 years to me... Or maybe it was garbage gas... "
Yeah, it's that the special Seattle "green" gas.  And it was clearly sitting outside, not in a garage, so it got the full dose of PNW cold damp winters, apparently more than twice. If it sat there any longer, it would have started growing moss. Speaking of Roadkill Garage, Tony will step in here and start with checking the WUR and its SP, CCP, WCP, etc., but I'll push the other way--get it running fast and dirty first, then worry about checking and adjusting that stuff, unless you can't get it running. 1. See the recent thread about a "1980SC estate find" and read that. Much the same situation as yours, only it was sitting much longer. 2. Tank strainer: Ehhh, I might just leave it alone for now. Otherwise, drain the tank and remove the strainer and check/clean it. You'll need a big-ass wrench. I forget the size, something like 32mm. 3. Check the oil, then disconnect the plug to the CDI box and crank it without firing it long enough to see the oil pressure gauge come up a little bit. You may have already accomplished that with your cranking and testing. Don't change the oil yet. 4. squirt starting fluid in the intake past the air metering plate, then attempt to start. You already cranked and it fired for a few seconds. That's good news. DO that some more. 5. Poor a bottle of "Techron Concentrate" in the tank along with your fresh gas. 6. Did you verify the fuel pump runs when the key is on and you raise the air metering plate? If so, the injectors should "squeal" when the key is on and you manually raise the arm/plate. Does it do that? If so, you're ready to fire it up! Plug the CDI box connector back in and see what happens! 7. The deck lid says "Turbo" on it. Any chance it has a turbo engine too? Is it even possible it is an original turbo car? Probably not, but check the serial number to be sure. At this point, I feel confident saying "Ya stole it!" So, drive it like you stole it!
__________________
1973.5 911T with RoW 1980 SC CIS stroked to 3.2, 10:1 Mahle Sport p/c's, TBC exhaust ports, M1 cams, SSI's. RSR bushings & adj spring plates, Koni Sports, 21/26mm T-bars, stock swaybars, 16x7 Fuchs w Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+, 205/55-16 at all 4 corners. Cars are for driving. If you want art, get something you can hang on the wall! Last edited by PeteKz; 05-08-2023 at 05:20 PM.. |
||
|
05-08-2023, 04:29 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
https://youtube.com/shorts/ZsSaBapEUs4
This is more or less where we’re at right now. We up the air sensor plate while key is switched on, fires up and runs great for three seconds and then dies. I’ll be clearing the strainer and addressing the fuel hose issue at the pump (better clamp). Can’t seem to figure out why fuel isn’t making it through… |
||
|
05-08-2023, 06:39 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
|
05-08-2023, 08:57 PM
|
|
|
PCA Member since 1988
|
If it has the turbo script on the rear deck, and the boost gauge in the dash, there's a reasonable chance it was a turbo car. The Turbos also had different brake calipers and other parts. Check the VIN, and check the inside of the fender flares to see if they were welded on, or one piece. If it was a turbo car, ya really stole it!
Further suggestions: 1. Put an inline filter between the tank and the fuel pump. It will save the pump. I'm pretty sure the 77 has the fuel pump under the front of the car. You should look for an inline filter that has a right angle on one end to make it easier to adapt to your fuel hose. 2. When you swap the old fuel hose, do not buy the made in China crap. Most of the FLAPS sell Gates or Goodyear brands by the foot behind the counter. 3. It sounds like you can do the troubleshooting, so check for fuel pressure and flow at the engine by removing the connection from the filter to the fuel rail and putting it into a container. I forget what the spec is, something like 2 quarts in 30 seconds. look it up to be sure. After you verify adequate fuel flow, then disconnect the return line from the fuel rail and check for plenty of flow. 4. Hold up the plate/arm and try to start it while holding it up. See whether you can manually get it to run. 5. For future reference, Pelican sells a genuine Bosch fuel pump for about the same price as the NAPA pump. If the NAPA pump dies, get the Bosch one.
__________________
1973.5 911T with RoW 1980 SC CIS stroked to 3.2, 10:1 Mahle Sport p/c's, TBC exhaust ports, M1 cams, SSI's. RSR bushings & adj spring plates, Koni Sports, 21/26mm T-bars, stock swaybars, 16x7 Fuchs w Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+, 205/55-16 at all 4 corners. Cars are for driving. If you want art, get something you can hang on the wall! Last edited by PeteKz; 05-09-2023 at 11:48 AM.. |
||
|
05-08-2023, 11:52 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
I don't have anything to add other than don't you dare change those wheels, they're fantastic on that car.
__________________
IG@ADDvanced Youtube@ADDvanced www.gruvdesign.com |
||
|
05-09-2023, 06:53 AM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 4,184
|
Yeh, wide-body with turbo script on the decklid and a tea tray.
But he says the injectors work when he lifts the air sensor plate - the AFM on 930 CIS is downdraft, pretty sure. Also, the '77 didn't come with a tea-tray; 3.0 930 wasn't intercooled, didn't need the turbo decklid/tail base with the cutout for it. Some have retrofitted intercoolers/later tails to 3.0s, of course. But the AFM plate needing to be lifted? Doesn't sound like a 930 in the back to me - my money is on a sheeper (the opposite of a sleeper). Or replacement motor, if VIN says the tub was 930. The '77 3.0 non-intercooled 930 had the same brakes as an F-body middie of the same year (first year for the servo) - so same rotors/calipers, smaller than the SC and not really ideal for use with 265HP... Often referred to as the "chocolate brakes"... VIN or motor #'s would be the easy way to tell. Suspension pickups/banana arms/wheel bearings are different on the 930s - but could have been swapped from a donor. Tach (with the rare 1.5 bar boost gauge - the 3.3s, introduced the next year, went to 1.0 bar) would be another tell-tale. Still pretty much stole it for 15K, if it runs and drives with a wash/fuel system flush...
__________________
'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things. |
||
|
05-09-2023, 11:55 AM
|
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
Pretty sure this is a standard 2.7. The gauge is throwing me off a bit…
I’ll work on a walk around video or a bunch of photos once it’s running and off the lift 
|
||
|
05-09-2023, 12:44 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 4,184
|
Quote:
If you have to lift the air plate to get the injectors to squeal and then it runs, the fuel plunger is probably sticking/gummed up and not moving freely (enough). Which means the pump won't be running just on vacuum, so the car will die quickly (eg when it uses up the fuel it got from you lifting the plate). You could try disconnecting the safety switch on the AFM (another first for 1977) to get the pump to run all the time when the key is "On". Which might mean that then it'll actually run. Also, if the plunger moves around a bit in fresh fuel, it could well loosen up enough on its own after a little while - and avoid the need to strip down the fuel distributor. Which you're not supposed to do, although many have successfully. They're made to extremely fine tolerances... Quote:
OK, read your earlier post: Quote:
Combined vacuum/boost gauges read something when cranking or running - anything that made vacuum. Vacuum gauges are also useful on N/A cars, and some came with them from the factory - 944s & 928s, for a start. Think many Subies had/have them too. Tried to remember if the one in my 5/10 was factory or aftermarket, but it's been too long...
__________________
'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things. Last edited by spuggy; 05-09-2023 at 04:15 PM.. |
|||
|
05-09-2023, 04:12 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
Quick update before I crash. I did a quick walk around video that I’ll upload tomorrow.
Got the fuel pump sorted. Left the strainer alone for now. Decided to dig into the FD. Took a little time to get it all off. Decided to leave the FI hoses attached. Flipped it up and the plunger seemed to move freely…. A good thing I guess, but I was hoping it was that so I could fix it and then the car would be running, right? Put it all back together and the car is still doing the same thing. Key on, pump running, no start. Lift up the sensor plate and it fires right up and then dies. We tried letting it run for about 20 seconds, still no start. One note. The yellow wire going to the starter. It was disconnected when I took ownership. When connected, the car doesn’t act differently in regards to starting. But 75% of the time, the starter will continue to crank, even after the key has been turned off. I did order a fuel pressure gauge set. Hoping it’s here tomorrow. Hoping it can help pinpoint the issue here. Could a bad CSV or WUR be causing this no-start issue? I didn’t try disconnecting the safety switch, as mentioned above. Kinda scratching my head, but I know I need to figure out this fuel pressure thing… |
||
|
05-09-2023, 10:51 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
Congratulations on the acquisition you should budget 3-400$ a month for a few months to make it a reliable driver then there is the stuff you find after you start driving it. Suspension, brakes,etc.
|
||
|
05-10-2023, 08:02 AM
|
|
|
PCA Member since 1988
|
Good job so far. Once you get it running, it stays running, correct? If so, let it sit and run for a good long time until it gets fully warmed up, and/or drive it around the block a few times. Then try to restart it.
The yellow wire from the starter solenoid goes back to the ignition switch. Check your wiring diagram for your year ('cause I don't have all of them memorized), but there should also be a yellow/blue wire from the starter that goes to the cold start valve and thermo-time switch. The CSV activates and squirts fuel when the starter is energized, AND the TTS is cold. After the TTV warms up, either due to electrical current through it while starting, or due to the engine reaching operating temperature, the CSV no longer operates. I'm also thinking you may have a fuel accumulator problem. The diaphragm inside eventually cracks and then it doesn't hold pressure for the next start. We've seen a lot of these go bad in the past couple years (mine included), IMO, due to the increasing amount of ethanol contamination in the fuel. It usually causes problems with warm restarts. Here's the Roadkill Garage quick and dirty check: remove the fitting from the bottom of the FA and pinch off or plug the hose. Run the pump. If you get any fuel out, it's bad. New one from our sponsor is about $160. Also possible that you have a significant intake air leak that is preventing the airflow from lifting the metering arm high enough to activate the air flow switch, and thus powering the fuel pump. Plan to do a smoke check. spuggy: I didn't mean to imply it has a turbo engine--it obviously doesn't--but that it may be an original turbo car, and that someone swapped the engine in the past. If so, he really stole it!
__________________
1973.5 911T with RoW 1980 SC CIS stroked to 3.2, 10:1 Mahle Sport p/c's, TBC exhaust ports, M1 cams, SSI's. RSR bushings & adj spring plates, Koni Sports, 21/26mm T-bars, stock swaybars, 16x7 Fuchs w Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+, 205/55-16 at all 4 corners. Cars are for driving. If you want art, get something you can hang on the wall! Last edited by PeteKz; 05-10-2023 at 03:33 PM.. |
||
|
05-10-2023, 03:17 PM
|
|
|
Cars and Cappuccino
|
Turbo or not Turbo? Check the brake calipers. If the rear caliper hangs off the REAR of the rotor, it just may be a true Turbo.
__________________
http://www.carsandcappuccino.com 1987 Grand Prix White "Outlaw" Turbo Coupe w/go-fast bits 1985 Prussian Blau M491 Targa 1977 Mexico Blue back-dated,flared,3.2,sunroof-delete Coupe 1972 Black 911 T Coupe to first factory Turbo (R5 chassis) tribute car (someday) |
||
|
05-10-2023, 03:54 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 51
|
Quote:
|
||
|
05-10-2023, 05:10 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 4,184
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Does the pump run all the time? If the pump is only running when you lift the plate - and the plate doesn't move under vacuum when cranking - or doesn't trigger the switch to start the pump - that's why it won't stay running. Given that it runs at all, I wouldn't be overly concerned with CIS pressures (yet). Disconnect the safety switch on the AFM so the pump runs all the time the key is on, and it should start and stay running. Then you can diagnose whether this was caused by safety switch dead/plate adjustment/massive air leak (apparently not unknown for gaskets to shrink, CIS injector o rings to crumble etc).
__________________
'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things. |
|||
|
05-10-2023, 06:22 PM
|
|
 |
|
|
| Tags |
| 1977 , build thread , convertible , diy |
