Wideband data for 3.2 getting 10 mpg city - what do you think?

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by scarceller

I'm slightly confused now, are you saying you sometimes have both sides at 0.95lambda with fully warm engine at idle?

The most important test is part throttle steady state load, 4th gear 3000RPMs what's the lambda in each bank? Can you please do that test when you have time? Idle conditions can be very finicky to get perfect mixture because flow rates and injector time are both very low.

Not "sometimes" Sal, 0.95 lambda was reached one time. This occurred with Bosch 158 in 1-2-3 and the "dirty" Lucas in 4-5-6. After removing those Lucas and sending them to Idaho Bill for testing---to get flow figures for them,---he also cleaned them. That was not his fault. He did what he always does. Was my fault in communication resulting in the Lucas injector flow rates changing. That is why when they were reinstalled, the test results no longer had the Bosch-Lucas combo showing 0.95 lambda.

This is the "balanced" test with the Bosch-"dirty"Lucas combo:




Re the 4th & 3000 rpm testing... will do with the all Bosch set up as is installed now. Then a comparison with the Bosch and new 255cc in 4-5-6. Post those tomorrow / Sat. late in day.
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[scarceller]

I don't think the intake runner flows are that bad, reason the flow bench looks bad is they are flowing them to max flow. But in reality these runners only flow 60CFM at most at WOT 7000RPM.
I tend to agree the engineers had already sized them properly.

Originally Posted by Joesmallwood

Is light load/partial throttle balance more important than high load? I would think that it's more important to be balanced under mid/high load (accelerating) than it would to be balanced at idle or cruise.

I'm also confused by Porsche would design in an imbalance in their manifold. I find this perplexing. It's true, the distances from the common plenum to the the intake may be different, but I can only assume that balancing the overall vacuum/flow to each cylinder was considered in Porsche's simulation, calculations, and testing. I could be wrong as it's only an assumption.

[76FJ55]

Just throwing this out there,
at low duty cycle the latency of the injector has a much more profound influence on mixture, so it you have injectors with different flow rates that also have different latency, you may balance mixture at one pulse width but negatively effect that at a different pulse width.

[scarceller]

Agree, at very low flow rates is when old injectors act up the most. They have trouble turning on and off and often have bad spray patterns.
This is why I'm suggesting to check fuel ratio at moderate load in 4th gear 3000RPM steady state driving.

Originally Posted by 76FJ55

Just throwing this out there,
at low duty cycle the latency of the injector has a much more profound influence on mixture, so it you have injectors with different flow rates that also have different latency, you may balance mixture at one pulse width but negatively effect that at a different pulse width.

[Discseven]

255cc Injectors from Five0 arrived. Don’t fit. Bottom, fixed o-ring O.D. is too large. Appear remanufactured.



Logs here are from today.
Bosch 158 injectors in all cylinders.
Green = 1-2-3
Blue = 4-5-6
Red dot-dash = 1.0 lambda

Cold engine at idle
Immediately after start up:




Warm engine at idle
dash temp gauge at 210:




3,000 rpm standing still / no load:




3,000 rpm in 4th gear, level pavement:



Fine suggestion to look at 3,000 Sal. Touch lean under load?
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[scarceller]

Your 4th gear 3000RPM is spot ON!
Next, same 4th gear 3000RPM go WOT but ride/hold the brakes at the same time to hold engine at 3000RPM. Do not do this for more than 5 seconds as you'll super heat the brakes. In that 5 sec window record the AFR, it needs to be below 13.0 or 0.89lambda but with a stock chip you may be much richer and with aftermarket chip like SW chip you'll be in the 0.84 to 0.89 range and stock chip can be down in the 0.80 to 0.84 range.
The important thing is that at WOT you should always be below 0.89lambda.

If you really want to test some other injectors I can recommend trying a set of Ford OEM Racing injectors, but you will need to make a few special adjustments to run these. Let me know if you want guidance doing that. The injectors are top notch FORD 24lb purple injectors, they will need a grove cut into them for the retainer clip but I can do that for a small fee.
FORD OEM part # M-9593-LU24A
https://www.amazon.com/Ford-Racing-M-9593-LU24A-Hi-Flow-Injector/dp/B00E89UBMG
And do not get knock offs they are junk! Only buy from the FORD Official Store on Amazon!
They will need these adapters also:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BYZMRYZ3

But these will run slightly lean, good news is you can simply move the Fuel Quality Switch in the DME to 3 or 6% richer. Or you can do a little fine tuning of the air meter wiper arm and move it slightly higher up to richen things up slightly.

You have WBO2 readings on both banks so you have the tools to dial in the mixture.

Stop messing with old school single pittle injectors we have much better modern day tech!

Or eventually install my MAF System and get spot on fuel mixture and the very best performance and throttle response.

[Discseven]

WOT w/braking in 4th gear to hold 3,000 rpm, 5 second brake hold

No wings to this. Increased braking while nearing 3,000 did not see O2 below 0.89. Did not save log figuring on redo. Tried braking down from near redline to 3,000. Brakes did not bite with WOT. Perhaps standing on the pedal would have worked... but didn’t apply pressure to system beyond my comfort zone. Mintex pads. Drilled rotors of a forgotten brand. To further impose on the brakes while possibly gaining a technique for this test... didn't go there.


WOT to redline through gears
All Bosch 158 single pintle antiquitous injectors
Green = 1-2-3
Blue = 4-5-6
Red dot-dash = 1.0 lambda
Blue dot-dash = 0.89 lambda



Safe pavement runs out in 4th so throttle comes off very early in that cycle. Sides slightly inverting under WOT… curious. Were it not for your relentless prodding to wideband the engine Sal, can’t say where I’d be with this fuel puzzling.

Ford racing injector note is appreciated. Seeing the loaded 3,000 4th gear test, and WOT-to-redline with O2 below 0.89, obsessing over injectors (balancing sides) is done with. Focus gets back to where this fuel journey began… 10mpg city. Parking brakes proved to be dragging… but… also eluded my car-push test not once, multiple times. There’s oddity in this. A haunting concern lingers: Can 10mpg city (and 27 highway) result from my installing 964 Webcams / 40ie grind, and setting 1.45 overlap?

Your MAF system… studied data you provided me on that. Brilliant solution. You certainly have a gladiator-mind for this air-fuel arena. Impressive is an understatement. To add another 911 project to my life cannot be allowed at the moment—other fish must be fried. Also would be pleasant to drive more & wrench less for a while—if at all possible. Old, single pintle injectors duly noted… antiques as they are, they must also fall into out of bounds territory for the moment. In a few words: car/engine has never run as well as it does now, 10mpg aside.

Progress / results here… much to your credit Sal. Thank you for your shared wisdom

[scarceller]

Your WOT AFR numbers are fine. At this point just set idle mixture on the 1-2-3 side at 0.96lambda and you are done for now.

Your 27MPG on the highway is a very good MPG for these engines. Why you see 10MPG city is very strange if it's not the brake issue?

The 40i40e cam is actually a slightly less aggressive cam than the factory 964 cam.
I never set cams using overlap method because it's not perfect, it depends a lot on having the valve lash properly set. I always prefer setting a cam using the LCA method, where you find the exact point where the cam achieves peak lift, this method does not care about the valve lash. If the cam is a 113 LCA and you want it installed perfectly and not retarded or advanced it's very easy to do. You just set it so peak lift occurs at exactly 113deg ATDC on the intake lobe and your done!

[scarceller]

These are what's used in my MAF System, they are Bosch OEM Racing program injectors and they are 34lb injectors. Can fuel a 4.0L if you could build such an engine. These are modern day top notch Bosch 4 hole disc injectors.

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by scarceller

Your WOT AFR numbers are fine. At this point just set idle mixture on the 1-2-3 side at 0.96lambda and you are done for now.

Your 27MPG on the highway is a very good MPG for these engines. Why you see 10MPG city is very strange if it's not the brake issue?

The 40i40e cam is actually a slightly less aggressive cam than the factory 964 cam.
I never set cams using overlap method because it's not perfect, it depends a lot on having the valve lash properly set. I always prefer setting a cam using the LCA method, where you find the exact point where the cam achieves peak lift, this method does not care about the valve lash. If the cam is a 113 LCA and you want it installed perfectly and not retarded or advanced it's very easy to do. You just set it so peak lift occurs at exactly 113deg ATDC on the intake lobe and your done!

Will see in a few days where city mpg lands. From looking at my fuel & odo gauges right now, 18 mpg does not appear to be happening...but it's early. To fill, I allow pump to auto shut off so might not have started with a truly "full" tank. Westar fuel (using a particular pump) is currently being tested.

Thanks for 964 cam comment. Had you said "Yes, they gobble gas," that would have been disappointing. Your peak lobe timing technique... wondering if this requires rotating the cams forward and in reverse to determine a lobe's precise peak (like determining precise piston peak.) If so, wouldn't chain slack play in? If it does, you must compensate. (How?)

Adjusting mixture to land 1-2-3 idle at 0.96 later today---thank you.
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[76FJ55]

Originally Posted by Discseven

Thanks for 964 cam comment. Had you said "Yes, they gobble gas," that would have been disappointing. Your peak lobe timing technique... wondering if this requires rotating the cams forward and in reverse to determine a lobe's precise peak (like determining precise piston peak.) If so, wouldn't chain slack play in? If it does, you must compensate. (How?)

[/COLOR]

Typically to find lobe center you are measuring to a specific amount of valve opening. you will crank the engine in the direction of rotation and record the crank position in degrees when the valve opens to the predetermined value, then continue cranking, still in the normal direction of rotation, until the valve has reached that same position as it is closing from full open. you will document the crank position again at that point and then calculate the lobe center as the mid point between the two crank positions.

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by 76FJ55

Typically to find lobe center you are measuring to a specific amount of valve opening. you will crank the engine in the direction of rotation and record the crank position in degrees when the valve opens to the predetermined value, then continue cranking, still in the normal direction of rotation, until the valve has reached that same position as it is closing from full open. you will document the crank position again at that point and then calculate the lobe center as the mid point between the two crank positions.

Makes perfect sense 76---thank you. Not sure why I was thinking there was a need for backward rotation. Think I went backwards to find #1 TDC to confirm pulley mark to crank. Might be dreaming.
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[Discseven]

1-2-3 target Lambda at warm idle = 0.96
Idle mixture screw now 4.2 turns out - was previously 5 turns out
Green = 1-2-3
Blue = 4-5-6
Red dot-dash = 1.0 Lambda
Blue dot-dash = 0.96 target
210 temp at dash gauge



Sides "balance" under load. See posts #65 and 67.

Notes:
‘85 3.2 in ‘80 911
Engine rebuilt w/all new ignition parts
Mod - SSIs with 2-in-1-out Dansk muffler
Mod - 964 Webcams 40i/40e grind
Timing = 1.45 overlap
Bosch 0280150158 injectors - original to engine - recently serviced by Idaho Bill - all flow 260cc
ECU fuel adjustment screw = position 0
Iridium spark plugs
Premium fuel
ECU recently tested - no faults
No vacuum leaks according to oil cap
Compression checked = even
Tight intake & exhaust nuts
Engine ground to chassis = clean & tight

O2 gear:
Innovate LC-2 dual wideband - cross swapped controllers to proof them
12v regulator + noise filter - 1 each per controller (system = 2 controllers)
Calibrated per Innovate specs
Bosch 4.9 O2 sensors - also cross swapped to proof accuracy
Data logging = LogWorks

Single issue I experienced with Innovate = connectors between controllers and sensor extension cables required adjustment (magnifying glass needed.) I have 3 controllers each (3rd is spare) and every male connector would not fully mate female side (that being in the extension cable) without adjustment. Some male pins needed their noses compressed. If sensor drops off, is advisable to check these connectors for a tight male-female fit at every pin.

Electrical - YouTube vid called out LC-2 having issues prior to including voltage regulator. Is reason for those being installed here. While at it, noise filters were also included. V-regulators are just after battery. Noise filters are just before controllers. Have relays switching both "clean" circuits running from the battery to the controllers. Each controller has a dedicated circuit. Not saying this is right way to do it. Is way I did it.
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[scarceller]

Yes correct! I first find the peak lift on the dial gauge and then continue around 2 complete crank turn and look for 0.050" before the peak and then again 0.050" after peak. The center between those 2 spots is you peak lift point.

Originally Posted by Discseven

Makes perfect sense 76---thank you. Not sure why I was thinking there was a need for backward rotation. Think I went backwards to find #1 TDC to confirm pulley mark to crank. Might be dreaming.
.

[Discseven]

City mpg test result after parking brake rebuild - Same station. Same pump. Same fill technique. 12 mpg.

?
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[rsscotty]

If your picture is correct your mileage looks to be in km/m...do the conversion and your getting 7 mpg....hard to imagine that.

[917_Langheck]

Originally Posted by rsscotty

If your picture is correct your mileage looks to be in km/m...do the conversion and your getting 7 mpg....hard to imagine that.

Both mph and kph are notated on the gauge, with the kph on the inside radius of mph; pictured above is only kph.

[Discseven]

And... odo's are correct according to state posted mile markers. Checked both of them a few times with same result.

[ErrorMargin]

Grasping for straws.....

A Fuel Leak that somehow only happens while driving and does not cause your car to burst into flame?

Speedometer calibration issue? <--- apparently not an issue per the above post

Really bad wheel bearings?

Given that your mixture is good it seems unlikely to be the engine itself

[Showdown]

At the risk of sounding obtuse, has the O2 sensor been calibrated? Do you know that the data you’re receiving is accurate and not off?

Are you actually experiencing low MPG when driving; are you filling up more often?


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