How to deal with "inherited" 1969 911E Targa?

[rotundapig]

I just acquired (paid what I thought was a pretty cheap price) my wife's uncle's 911E Targa as my first Porsche and first car of this vintage with any real value. He (hi, Rob - if you find this!) owned the car for over 20 years and it has been sitting in his garage for about 10. This is what I walked past in his garage until I cajoled him into letting me haul it away:





I knew it would be a project, needing floor pans and the passenger inner rocker replaced and plenty of sprucing up needed. It's numbers-matching (if that matters), has an interior that is useable (needs driver seat upholstery and door car work, but dash is in good shape), and a mediocre re-spray that I was hoping to sort out after a few years of enjoyment and saving money.
I was able to get it running and after adjusting the valves and ignition, it starts easily and runs smoothly and shifts reasonably well, so I've gently puttered around the neighborhood to get a feel for what the car needs and priorities.

The good:



The bad:






The doubt about how (or whether) to carry on with the project came last night while I was crawling around under the car, trying to make sure that I hadn't missed any major rust before ordering panels from Restoration Design. It looks like the torsion tube is kaput!

the ugly:


Now I'm wondering whether I have the tools and technical ability (and dedication) to get this car back on the road. My questions to the fine Porsche People of Pelican Parts are:

- Is it possible / reasonable to replace the torsion tube without a chassis table / lift in my 2-car garage (plus ~900 sq. ft. of climate controlled basement storage)?
- What other big issues should I consider? I've already budgeted for engine / MFI work sometime in the future.
- What are my options?

After reading through so many other interesting thread with amazing and helpful input from this community, I'm really looking forward to hearing what you all think.

[rotundapig]

Well, I dug in a bit more to see whether there was the option of replacing the center section of the torsion tube, as I have seen on a few others do. The hunt for rust was fruitful, unfortunately.




The torsion bar cover looked like it has spent some time on the bottom of the ocean



The inside of the torsion tube appeared to be crumbly, flaky rust all the way through, at least on the right side.



And the real kicker is that it looks like the supporting wheelhouse structure will also need to be replaced. On the inside, it looked there was an old repair attempt, that I'll have to dig a bit deeper to get a decent photo and idea of the quality of the repair.

The eagle-eyed may also notice the bolt that snapped off - welded in nut looks like part of the previous repair?



I'm hoping to get some suggestions on what else to look for before I make the decision to push forward with the project or to let it go to someone with deeper pockets or more capabiliites.

[Mixed76]

Really depends how much time you have. 900 sf should be plenty of working room. Lift would be helpful but for this repair you really need a rotisserie.

Since this is a targa, and you've said the rockers and floors are suspect, you'll want to weld braces holding the front of the car to and in alignment with the back.

To keep the frame from bending (or even sagging), and from spilling fluids when you rotate it on the rotisserie/ start cutting metal off, you should take off engine, transmission, doors, battery, fuel tank, oil tank, wheels, maybe the glass. Fenders and lids might be a good idea too.

Then you'll want to have a good system for measuring and aligning parts as you cut out and replace.

All this takes time, care, thought.

Can it be done? Yes? Can you? No idea. For me it would be an impossible time commitment and a path to a car that gets sold in pieces a few years later.

Just my opinion.

[rotundapig]

Thanks for the input, that's just what I'm trying to sort out now. I'd rather sell this as a whole car than part it out after I've gotten half way in.

I don't think I have room for a rotisserie and I feel like taking the glass out is a line I don't want to cross, but my main concern right now is that there are other major surprises that could be in store.

Or is borked torque tube about as bad as it gets?

[speedster911]

The first question is how badly do you want a 69 E targa? If yes, Second question is would you pay 80 -130,000 for it? You say you don't want to cross the line of taking windows out- trust me, there is rust in the front and rear window channels.

Speaking from experience, if you put a price on your time, plus parts, you will be into this five or more years later for 80-130 +

It could be a fun project, if you purchased it right, you wont be upside down to badly. You will gain great automotive skills, and have a great sense of satisfaction when completed. Its a cool car, great color, good luck .

[PeteKz]

Same comments as above, with emphasis. It does not sound like you can tackle that long and intense of a restoration. It DOES have more rust where you can't see it. So you are down to two choices:
1. Pay Porsche-specific body shop to rebuild and repaint the body at least. Maybe you can put the mechanicals back together your self. Otherwise pay for a full restoration, which will be super expensive. You will only want to do this if you have a strong emotional family connection to the car.
2. Sell it as-is.

[targa80]

My car is a numbers matching 1980 SC Targa that I purchased in Astoria Queens, New York in February 1991, I became the third owner of the car. Moved to San Diego in 1994 and rebuild the engine at 98k miles in 1998. I decided to go the full body restoration route after a front fender bender in late 2002. Couldn’t afford to pay the cost for a professional restoration so I opted to perform all of the work myself. I even fabricated the rotisserie from plans I found on the internet. If you do a search under targa80 you can find my posts on the restoration back in 2002-2003 and 2012.

Circa 2003



Circa 2021



My car was a daily driver every year during the summer months while I was working. I retired in 2012 and since then it is pampered and driven about once a week. The restoration was a life learning experience and was very self satisfying to accomplish. Whatever you decide to do it should be noted that a matching numbers Porsche that is over 50 years old and is maintained and driven is priceless to the owner. If you have a love for the car then I would encourage you to move forward with bringing the car to a restoration level that you can enjoy in the future.

[rotundapig]

Thanks for sharing - that's the sort of input that I'm looking for.

I'm currently noodling on whether there is any hope of breaking this project down so that I can eat the elephant one bite at a time. I am keen on the idea of having an older Porsche, plus being miserly and motivated by having something to work on means that this is likely the best path to actually having one. If I can get this one to the point that it is worth anything and not be deeply underwater, I could see myself selling it and being a much better informed buyer next time around.

I'm ~$16k into it now and can stomach about another ~$40k so it seems possible, assuming the value of my time is offset by the enjoyment of working on it and I can find some sort of local support network to cover some of the things that I won't be able to tackle.

The current plan is to much more thoroughly check out the car and then re-do my budget, plus get an idea of what I could sell it for as-is right now. To that end:

The silver lining of this morning's work was that the driver's side torsion tube support does seem solid (I'll scape more undercoating off later), and even though the tube itself is rotten on this side, I've already written the whole thing off in my mind.




The unpleasant surprise came when I took off the driver's side trim and it looks like the trim may have been a structural element. The smudges are from my instinctive reaction to try and wipe the crack away.



Peeking in the rocker, I found what I have come to expect. It looks like there will be a few pieces added to the restorations design shopping cart




I would love to hear more success and horror stories as I mull over what to do, as well as any tips on where else to look for trouble.

[RSTarga]

Thats a level of rust that will not be fixed cheaply. There is more than you can see.

[rotundapig]

Originally Posted by RSTarga

Thats a level of rust that will not be fixed cheaply. There is more than you can see.

After reading through many other restoration threads and watching some videos, I've certainly taken that message to heart and spent a little time this week trying to suss out any other major issues with the car before I make any major investments.

I had wrapped my head around tackling the torsion tube, rockers and floor plan, by thinking that I could just cut into the underside and lower part of the car, leaving the glass and most of the body in tact. The goal would be to have a solid driver that I could continually work on in small sections.

I'm not done examining the car, but it has been an emotional roller coaster already.

The front fenders, gas tank support and front suspension really didn't shown any significant issues. While the weather was cooperative, I warmed the engine up in the drive way and ran a compression test, with all the cylinders showing 145-150 PSI and the engine running quite smoothly and sounding great.

At this point, I think I'm over the hump and starting to plan for adding the 220v receptacle in the garage for the welder, designing a fixture for the torsion tube, and thinking about whether I would want to buy the smaller torsion tube mounting point patch panels or the larger inner and outer wheelhouses. To that end, I start my more thorough prodding of that region and the downhill slide begins...

[rotundapig]

I still needed to inspect the rear seats, parcel shelf, engine bay and more thoroughly look at the rear wheel wells.

The first sign of trouble was when I found a solid steel, but it was only held on with bondo!



It looks like there has been major repair in the passenger side door jamb,



with a visible (un-welded) seam at the top




And some fiberglass filler covering another seam. I can't imagine why you would use fiber glass there, but I'm sure it doesn't bode well.



On the driver side, I didn't see any major issues with the door jamb, but another fiberglass patch fell out.





I really started feeling the overwhelming sense of doom when I found some really heinous rust right at the base of the roll bar.



I gave up and started getting ready for work when the screwdriver that I'm using as a probe went straight through



It seems like this will entirely torpedo my idea to stick to the bottom half of the car. I'll have to do some more research to see if any of this can be fixed from the inside and to generally quell my sense of doom.

[Ian Comerford]

If you’ve decided you can do the torsion tube repair then anything else will be relatively straightforward. It isn’t very common but most of the other rust you have encountered so far is, with repair panels available and useful reports from people who have done similar. It sounds like you are mentally going for it so don’t be put off by smaller issues than the torsion tube.

[rotundapig]

Originally Posted by Ian Comerford

If you’ve decided you can do the torsion tube repair then anything else will be relatively straightforward. It isn’t very common but most of the other rust you have encountered so far is, with repair panels available and useful reports from people who have done similar. It sounds like you are mentally going for it so don’t be put off by smaller issues than the torsion tube.

Thanks for the encouragement! It's always a challenge to incorporate new obstacles into a plan of attack.

My primary concern now is how I'll support and align everything the important structural bits while I'm working. For the torsion tube, I can envision a piece-by-piece approach with a few jigs to align the tube and wheel well panels. For the rockers, I'm struggling to think of how I can keep everything in place if both the door jamb and rockers are rotten, and that before I get in to the roll bar support.

I'm sure it's just a matter of more research, and then I need to figure out where my real limitations are:

Am I willing to (or have room for) a rotisserie / octisserie in my garage?
Am I willing to pay for access or build a suitable substitute for a Celette bench to keep everything straight?

The key thing for me right now is to make as sure as possible that I'm able to fully commit before I pass the transition point from a project car that can move under its own power to a collection of parts and a rusty, wobbly shell.

[rotundapig]

An update to help me keep track of progress, provide a reference for anyone else that ends up in a similar circumstance and maybe leave myself some breadcrumbs for when I'm re-assembling.

Lots of travel for work this month, so not much time to get much done, but I was able to get my 240V outlet and welder set up, as well as strip most of the interior and start pulling and cleaning some exterior parts.









I found some evidence of things that I'll need to tackle later on:

Broken wires at the engine cover - seems like a good place to have a connector, anyway.



Hanging bolt and ground wire - why?



Hints of generous application of bondo. I've see the horrors of some other threads, so I'm preparing myself for the worst.



I also found some good reference photos for a jig for setting up the torsion tube. I'm thinking I'll come up with something like this that picks up a few additional reference points on the chassis, although Mine may be less beefy.

[rotundapig]

Another update, mostly so that I can keep track of what I've been up to and figure out what I was thinking in a few years when I'm still working on this.

Lots of work travel this month has slowed me down, and the next few weeks will also likely be slow, but hopefully will tackle a few major disassembly steps in the next 2 weeks.

Since the last post, I pulled off the front fenders (which were welded on at the bottom. This is kind of interesting, since I've found other areas where metal was brazed in, so I was thinking whoever did the previous repair didn't have a welder. There was also generous use of bondo




After pulling off the front fenders, I stripped some of the undercoating to see how bad the rust was in the front fenders and the passenger side had more widespread rust, but the driver side seems solid





On the driver side, the rust seems to be concentrated in the bottom of the front door support. It looks like I should be ready to replace the front fender support and rear door post




The real treat was finding that the inside of the B-pillar was returning to the earth

[rotundapig]

I feel like I hit a significant milestone today: all the parts off the chassis, clean and stored in the basement. Now the real fun of stripping paint and undercoating begins.

[Old H2S]

Christian Meyer
Jan 28, 2023, 11:25 PM
to me

Hi Tom. Apologies for the long delay in replying to your email. I somehow overlooked it. I am located in Brookneal Va. Approximately 30 minutes south of Lynchburg, and about an hour and a half north of Raleigh NC. Anyways, if I can help please let me know.

Thanks,
Christian (Chris) Meyer
Cell (434) 435-8054

Call Christian and get some GOOD advice on the bench time and jigs you need .. he has them.

[rotundapig]

I'm not sure why, but my subscription to this thread didn't show that anyone had replied, so I didn't see the above message. I'm not Tom and I don't think that I emailed, but I will get in touch!

I've been travelling a ton the last several weeks for work and as is usually the case with lots of air travel, I've also been sick. So, progress feels slow to me, but there have been a few significant milestones.

I wish I would have seen the message about jigs, because I did go ahead and make my own. I call it the jig-tisserie:






I also made the first cuts to get a better idea of the extent of the rust in some of the tricky areas. I was hoping to avoid removing the rear fenders, but it looks like it makes more sense to pull the whole things off. The fenders seem solid, but I'll need access to the areas underneath and there may be rust hiding in the inaccessible nooks and crannies. Pardon the ugly cuts. I knew everything in that area will be replaced with new panels.







I'm also wondering how to address the area right under the roll bar. I've been doing lots of shopping on restoration design and a few other sites and not sure that I've seen those pieces. I'll have to dig through the factory manual and interwebs to find the part numbers, unless someone here has some hints.

[rotundapig]

I have some major updates and want to share before work slows down for a few weeks while I'm travelling again.

I cleaned up the rear fenders, in preparation to pull them off- seems like there's no better way to access all the heinous rust new the door and provided the only way that I could think of to check for more rust between the outer fender and inner fender.



During that process, I found that the fender also had some sketchy previous repairs. If I can patch the lip and torsion bar access hole in a reasonable way, then I may be able to just replace the sliver near the door, otherwise it's a whole new fender. I'm hoping by the time they need to go back on, I'll have acquired much more metal working skills.





I also found that the factory welds were a little rough in spots. This was under lead and looks to be in an area that hasn't been touched.

[rotundapig]

The passenger side fender was in a bit better shape. I got them both cleaned up as much as practical and gave them a dousing with lanolin for storage.



With the fenders off, I was able to see the extent of the rust around the base of the roll bar. I was initially very concerned about how to fix this, and I think it'll be one of the more complicated parts, but I now have a plan.






I took the 7" wire wheel to all the undercoating and rock guard on the inner fenders, treated with Ospho, removed any remaining surface rust and coated for later work. I also welded in some bracing for the roll bar before pulling off the fenders.




While stripping away all the various layers of paint, adhesive, rock guard, and sound deadening, I found some more brazing, fiberglass and bondo. I was already planning to replace that whole section, but it is amazing to see what can be hidden and how critical it is to strip everything away.



The real sense of accomplishment came from finally removing the piece that lead down this road. It turns out that one end was so rusted that it was no longer attached at all to the outer layer of steel - where the reinforcements and connection to spring plates are! I'm glad I test drove it on the old tires, so that I wasn't attempting any serious cornering.



Next step will be to strip the rear seats and engine bay. I'm hoping at that point I'll be confident enough in my sheet metal shopping cart to place the (massive) order.