Another bad experience with Elephant Racing

[pmax]

Originally Posted by jwolfe

...

Originally Posted by pmax

Mistakes are par for the course, pros or DIYers alike.



I agree the clearance should not change whether on the ground or in the air. Surely, the OP spun the wheels first before the ill fated test drive.



Also, aren't those tabs supposed to be upturned ?

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1099587-psa-anyone-wanting-raised-spindles-3.html#post12265446

My post from the linked thread.

When millimeters matter, upturning those "wings" gives you more clearance.

Here's a pic which I believe is from the factory manual ...

[safe]

Elephant should be more clear that milage may vary.

But the builder has the responsibility, there is just so much variations within the same specs. Bolt on does not exists, that should be known by everyone, its not just a meme.

How could you take it out for a ride without checking clearances carefully.

19mm is very close 15", 30mm on 16s should be a little less close, but still close.
I have 19mm on 15s, they fit, but not without massaging things a lot... Involving grinders...

[colingreene]

Final test fit is on the installer, but yes elephant racing should be more careful about what they are recommending.

[Cloggie]

I have all Elephant stuff and I have found their products excellent along with their support.

I totally agree that it is up to the builder to check the whole installation and make their own determination on clearances and such.

My example is that I have ASP and it looked like its bottom link bolt was perilously close to my brand new Fuchsfelge.

Chuck and I got on the phone, I sent a few pictures and he determined that the clearance was close but tolerable...he felt it would not be an issue, but also said an extra couple of mm was an fine idea.

So, I bought spacers, move things out by 2 mm and now sleep comfortably at night.

Accountability rested with me....with advice and input from Chuck.

D.

[chrismorse]

Over the last 12 years, I have worked on my dad's 74 coupe, Elephant bushings, spring plates, sway bar links, shocks, Oil cooler, tstat, used factory cooler lines, + Advice. He even sent me another pair of front controll arm bushings after i screwed up the clocking - no charge !!!
I'd give Chuck a big +++
Chris

[Kevin Stewart]

Most people put a part on and expect it to fit. I am not sure on the instructions but if it doesn't say check, not sure I would.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Kevin Stewart

Most people put a part on and expect it to fit. I am not sure on the instructions but if it doesn't say check, not sure I would.

Yup. And that is what separates folks in this hobby - those who understand these cars and those who do not.

The former understand that when new, these were essentially just short of "bespoke" cars. Hand built, one at a time, barely qualifying as "production cars" as we now know them. Parts were painstakingly hand fitted to each and every car, one at a time. Not the best way to "manufacture", for sure, and Wendelin Weideking (spelling?) corrected and modernized that with the 986/996 production.

These folks understand the need to often do the same - hand fit parts that "should" fit. We check and double check. We fit and refit. Not with everything, but with some things. Over time, we recognize pretty quickly when we need to bear down and do this. A lot of work at times, but the reward is success in the end.

The latter - those who do not understand what they are dealing with - expect to be able to just slap parts on willy-nilly, expecting them to fit "right out of the box". They never check anything, never fit anything, they just spin wrenches. And they are aghast when something "didn't fit", blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

These are not modern cars. They were not "assembly line" cars. I can take parts from my car and attempt to install them on either of my sons' cars and they simply will not fit. Is it because the part is defective? Of course not. It fit my car, didn't it? These cars vary. A lot.

I hate seeing threads like this. A very blatant attempt to materially injure Elephant Racing's business. There is no call for that. Clearly, if their parts as recommended did not fit the vast majority of cars they are intended to fit, they would take measures to rectify this situation. Further, as many have stated in this very thread, if we have problems with their parts help is a phone call away. I have spent a good deal of time on the phone with Chuck, or one of his staff, discussing installation of various Elephant Racing parts on my car and on my sons' cars. They are always willing and eager to spend the time necessary to ensure my success. Always.

So, yeah, things don't always fit. Do the parts suppliers owe us an education on all of this, or can they assume that anyone diving in at a certain level should know all of this? Are they obligated to hand-hold and molly-coddle erstwhile "mechanics" through the whole thing? I don't think they are. I think they can expect customers to bring a certain minimum level of understanding and attention to all of this.

And, well, in the end - a case like this, wherein the "mechanic" actually drove around with what must have been an ungodly racket coming from his front end as his lower a-arms ground away on his wheels, all the while not thinking he should probably stop and inspect, well... how do you account for that level of incompetency and inattention? There is no way a supplier can do that. Chuck could have, would have eagerly helped, given the chance before the damage was done. But making that phone call before just blithely driving around, ignoring the hellacious noise, would have required this "mechanic" be in that first category of old 911 ownership - those who actually understand these cars.

[montauk]

I'm not here to defend Elephant racing or the OP. I am curious about why this would happen so I looked at Elephant racing's webpage regarding spindle height modifications. I don't see anything jumping out at me telling the buyer to beware of parts that might not fit. In fact, the last image says "paint and install".


https://www.elephantracing.com/porsche/911/component-services-for-911/strut-modification-and-services/

Maybe the best solution is for Elephant to put more information out there about what to measure before ordering and what to look for before the first drive.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Yup. And that is what separates folks in this hobby - those who understand these cars and those who do not.

The former understand that when new, these were essentially just short of "bespoke" cars. Hand built, one at a time, barely qualifying as "production cars" as we now know them. Parts were painstakingly hand fitted to each and every car, one at a time. Not the best way to "manufacture", for sure, and Wendelin Weideking (spelling?) corrected and modernized that with the 986/996 production.

These folks understand the need to often do the same - hand fit parts that "should" fit. We check and double check. We fit and refit. Not with everything, but with some things. Over time, we recognize pretty quickly when we need to bear down and do this. A lot of work at times, but the reward is success in the end.

The latter - those who do not understand what they are dealing with - expect to be able to just slap parts on willy-nilly, expecting them to fit "right out of the box". They never check anything, never fit anything, they just spin wrenches. And they are aghast when something "didn't fit", blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

These are not modern cars. They were not "assembly line" cars. I can take parts from my car and attempt to install them on either of my sons' cars and they simply will not fit. Is it because the part is defective? Of course not. It fit my car, didn't it? These cars vary. A lot.

I hate seeing threads like this. A very blatant attempt to materially injure Elephant Racing's business. There is no call for that. Clearly, if their parts as recommended did not fit the vast majority of cars they are intended to fit, they would take measures to rectify this situation. Further, as many have stated in this very thread, if we have problems with their parts help is a phone call away. I have spent a good deal of time on the phone with Chuck, or one of his staff, discussing installation of various Elephant Racing parts on my car and on my sons' cars. They are always willing and eager to spend the time necessary to ensure my success. Always.

So, yeah, things don't always fit. Do the parts suppliers owe us an education on all of this, or can they assume that anyone diving in at a certain level should know all of this? Are they obligated to hand-hold and molly-coddle erstwhile "mechanics" through the whole thing? I don't think they are. I think they can expect customers to bring a certain minimum level of understanding and attention to all of this.

And, well, in the end - a case like this, wherein the "mechanic" actually drove around with what must have been an ungodly racket coming from his front end as his lower a-arms ground away on his wheels, all the while not thinking he should probably stop and inspect, well... how do you account for that level of incompetency and inattention? There is no way a supplier can do that. Chuck could have, would have eagerly helped, given the chance before the damage was done. But making that phone call before just blithely driving around, ignoring the hellacious noise, would have required this "mechanic" be in that first category of old 911 ownership - those who actually understand these cars.

[faverymi]

Modified cars..... Comes with the territory.

It's great that they are still companies making parts for our cars.

Don't want to deal with it. Leave it stock.

That's the story of my car life

Good luck sorting the problem

[evan9eleven]

I have only had good experiences with Elephant Racing, full setup from them on the 911 and bushings + more on the Boxster. Always super helpful customer service.

My '81 has 30mm raised spindles under 16" Fuchs... the clearance is tight but more than adequate.

I'll continue to use ER for my needs in any case.

[Rick Cabell]

I just finished a $8000 order for a customer that started in May. It looks like it will be completed correctly this week. My advice? Only talk to Chuck unless you buy one part and know your part number.

[Kevin Stewart]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Yup. And that is what separates folks in this hobby - those who understand these cars and those who do not.

The former understand that when new, these were essentially just short of "bespoke" cars. Hand built, one at a time, barely qualifying as "production cars" as we now know them. Parts were painstakingly hand fitted to each and every car, one at a time. Not the best way to "manufacture", for sure, and Wendelin Weideking (spelling?) corrected and modernized that with the 986/996 production.

These folks understand the need to often do the same - hand fit parts that "should" fit. We check and double check. We fit and refit. Not with everything, but with some things. Over time, we recognize pretty quickly when we need to bear down and do this. A lot of work at times, but the reward is success in the end.

The latter - those who do not understand what they are dealing with - expect to be able to just slap parts on willy-nilly, expecting them to fit "right out of the box". They never check anything, never fit anything, they just spin wrenches. And they are aghast when something "didn't fit", blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

These are not modern cars. They were not "assembly line" cars. I can take parts from my car and attempt to install them on either of my sons' cars and they simply will not fit. Is it because the part is defective? Of course not. It fit my car, didn't it? These cars vary. A lot.

I hate seeing threads like this. A very blatant attempt to materially injure Elephant Racing's business. There is no call for that. Clearly, if their parts as recommended did not fit the vast majority of cars they are intended to fit, they would take measures to rectify this situation. Further, as many have stated in this very thread, if we have problems with their parts help is a phone call away. I have spent a good deal of time on the phone with Chuck, or one of his staff, discussing installation of various Elephant Racing parts on my car and on my sons' cars. They are always willing and eager to spend the time necessary to ensure my success. Always.

So, yeah, things don't always fit. Do the parts suppliers owe us an education on all of this, or can they assume that anyone diving in at a certain level should know all of this? Are they obligated to hand-hold and molly-coddle erstwhile "mechanics" through the whole thing? I don't think they are. I think they can expect customers to bring a certain minimum level of understanding and attention to all of this.

And, well, in the end - a case like this, wherein the "mechanic" actually drove around with what must have been an ungodly racket coming from his front end as his lower a-arms ground away on his wheels, all the while not thinking he should probably stop and inspect, well... how do you account for that level of incompetency and inattention? There is no way a supplier can do that. Chuck could have, would have eagerly helped, given the chance before the damage was done. But making that phone call before just blithely driving around, ignoring the hellacious noise, would have required this "mechanic" be in that first category of old 911 ownership - those who actually understand these cars.

I just reread the original post. I have been in racing a long time and sold wheels and was involved in wheels for years.

One,,, whoever torqued the wheel must have really torqued it. In order to have that damage the wheel had to be imbedded in the control arm when torqued and there is no way the wheel/tire would have turned when it was off the ground. You would of heard that and felt it within a foot of driving. It probably bogged the motor or the front end dove when trying to move. I have seen this before.

Two,,, in racing, if someone was trying to flatten the lowers to help with roll speed and roll center they could have used a longer ball joint and didn't check the air gap.

I recently said I wouldn't have checked, and Ill stick to that with most things on a car. In this case most times installing a wheel it will rotate some while tightening lugs. This wheel did not rotate. Custom/race is just what it is and should be treated differently. Lesson learned.

I recently had custom spindles built for a racecar and they were so tight on my specs the rotors rubbed, I had to use a 1/8th inch spacer.

Moral of the story SHIP happens.

[pmax]

OP,
Is this resolved ?