The Ideal Shop.

[Grady Clay]

Milt,

I’m not promoting any particular shop or Dealer. I’m questioning what you and other Pelicans like, want, accept, don’t like, etc. Clearly there are some strong opinions here. This should not degenerate into “this shop is better than that one.” What I am asking is what features do you like and what not. There are multiple answers and no individual one is right for everyone.

The value of this is for Pelicans and others to understand the worth of “The Ideal Shop” or close. Many don’t understand what is or can be available.
The value of this to shops, Dealers, PCNA, and PAG is to understand what their customers want.

I think the best mix is a combination of DIY and shops (indy or dealer.) That is just my opinion. I want to hear from all Pelicans.

Best,
Grady

[}{arlequin]

I like a shop that lets me wonder around inside. I know, danger, insurance, things falling on my head etc, etc, but I don't buy it.

When you get to a shop like that, you usually tell them what's going to get done/worked on/fixed. Together with the type of car you bring, a normal individual should be able to tell whether you are the kind of person who knows his way around tools and car parts or whether you will trip over an air hose, spray Brakleen in your eyes, and flap your arms wildly until you drop a car from a lift.

While I can see how *constantly* looking over someone's shoulder can be annoying and slow down the work, I do want to observe how something is done/removed/fixed. I am interested in it and I would like to learn too. This really applies to jobs that don't take longer than one day, but even if I had a rebuild done, I'd love to drop in everyday and observe the handling of different steps. Even better if I was able to help out too.

The shops that accomodate this behavior, by nature, will be staffed w/ understanding enthusiasts, that hopefully remember how they were when they were in my position. Those shops are never "too big" literally and figuratively.

I love and respect Andial's work, and I hope I can have them build me some Stuttgart rocket someday, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to hang out back on their shop floor while they work on my car. (Maybe I'm wrong about Andial-- that would be awesome) Which is why places like TRE, JWW, and many others like them appeal to me. I don't like a feeling that a conglomerate worked on my car. I like the security of knowing that a "human being" tightened my bleeder screws (it's me anyway, but if it weren't that's what I'd want.)

[Randy Webb]

That's an interesting condition, Jim. More info you can share on why the PO asked you to avoid prof. mechanics?

[zotman72]

This is an interesting thread. As one who does all (well most) of his work on his two 911s, I find visiting the local shops in the Denver area a mixed bag. Several good Porsche shops take great delight in tormenting/teasing me about my screwups and current misadventures upon my visits. It is all part of game that I like. Being the former chief tech inspector for the local PCA region, we have our DE pre-techs hosted by shops, including the local dealer.
I do know that shops hate the racers generally because of the time crunches involved and the often severity of their breakdowns

Grady didn't you have a shop once in the Denver area as well?
What was it like for you as a shop owner?

Several of our local Porsche wrenches apparently used to work for you too I was told recently?

[pwd72s]

Gee, my car was once worked on in a fantastic shop in Denver...several lifts, the place was spotless, the guys working there were skilled, and the owner...ah the owner....his depth of knowlege was nearly bottomless! I remember lunch in a Mexican restaurant near the shop, listening to the owner speak on suspension knowledge of the time. Alas, I heard a nasty rumor that the shop is no more...the owner retired, and is now giving P-car phreaks the benefit of his knowledge on this very board!

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Grady Clay

Clearly there are some strong opinions here.

This should not degenerate into “this shop is better than that one.” The value of this is for Pelicans and others to understand the worth of “The Ideal Shop” or close.

I do Everything except tire mounting&balance.

Otherwise...
I don't need them helping to screw up my 911. I can screw it up myself.

[Randy Webb]

Ron, Do you ever get advice from any prof. mechanics or shop owners on this BBS?
I understand your point tho.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
Ron, Do you ever get advice from any prof. mechanics or shop owners on this BBS?
I understand your point tho.

of course I do.. There is no way a mechanic will put in the time to make my car exactly how I want it. My car isn't shop doable.

[Jim Sims]

Too many bungled jobs - good mecahnics for older 911's are scarce in my part of the woods. The motto is: "I can do it wrong a lot cheaper than I if pay someone else to do it wrong." After a while, one isn't doing it wrong anymore and the repairs get a lot cheaper and much more convenient. No taking the car in, waiting forever for the job and then having to take it back in again because it wasn't done correctly.

Quiz question - what can one quickly check after an engine drop and reinstallation to check if the mechanic that did it is quality oriented? Jim

[Randy Webb]

Quiz - I will have to guess it is a fastener related answer.....


Ron - Understood. Your penchant for wiring, marine grade electrics, etc. is a special case tho. Or did you mean something else?

[pwd72s]

Dunno about you Jim, but I first look to be sure the rubber sheet metal air seals have been reinstalled properly... Ron? The shop I described above? A PCAer of the time told me it's owner was well educated in another field...but after a disappointing dealership shop experience, decided he could do better. IMHO, he did...a LOT better.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Randy Webb

Or did you mean something else?

Jim's syntax is better than mine.

[Jim Sims]

Bingo pwd! Jim

[Zeke]

Originally posted by speeder
Milt, I think that I understand the part of your post about having TRE install a splitter, but to call Andial a "maintenence facility" is just not correct. Yes they will do maintenence, like any full-service shop, but they are the absolute pinacle of Porsche performance application in the U.S.

My choice of words leaves something to be desired. Yes, they can definately build a hot rod. But since the formation of North American Porsche Racing with one the the partners (Alwin Springer, now retired) as president, many of the things they used to do in both buildings are now handled exclusively across the lot. So, you really do see a lot more mundane operations in the original facility these days. And, hold onto your hat, they WILL work on water pumpers. That was not always so.

Grady, I follow. Not promoting either. Benchmark is the word.

Dave, the path to the Andial parts counter goes within a few feet of the engine assembly area. It's sorta a public area, not really off limits. They have a waiting room out front I'm sure they wish you would use, but I've never been asked to please go in there and leave us alone, even in the nicest manner. They like people who are interested. Dieter and Arnold have been doing this so long that they may have lost some enthusiasm for kibitzing with the public, but the worst offense is to tell them you know something. You might, but not around there. It's like E.F. Hutton, they talk, you listen. You wanna put a 3.0 in where the 2.7 lives? Dieter will tell you about the clutch for 10 minutes. Don't ask me, I don't know about the clutch. I just heard him.

[Randy Webb]

Ha - well not quite like EF Hutton -- Andial has never been indicted or convicted....

[david914]

Originally posted by RoninLB
I do Everything except tire mounting&balance.

Otherwise...
I don't need them helping to screw up my 911. I can screw it up myself.

Heehee. Same here. I like the way you put that. Too bad tire mounting equipment is so bloody expensive, or we could be truly self sufficient.

[john_colasante]

One thing I have learned over the years is that just because someone calls themselves a "Porsche mechanic" does not mean they are a good mechanic in general. They may be very knowledgable on the Porsche cars specifically, and they may be able to swap parts quickly - but they do not posses all of the requisite skills that a competant automotive technician should have - and these skills come from experience, being smart, and technical in automotive repair and diagnostics.

[bigrubberjeep]

Well, I am fortunate not to have too much experience with the shop I use, but I will have to say this.


He helped me with information on what would be a good car for my budget.

He chated with me about what the purpose would be for my car and what to look for that was close to that.

He always had customers happy with his work picking up cars at his shop and dropping them off

All this 6 months before I even owned my 911 and 1 year before he made a single $ off of me.

Now after I found my car, he gave me some freebies and also let's me tinker with mods before I spend the $$$, such as a air fiter cover with holes in it, a moded motronic DME and other stuff like that.

[Grady Clay]

Dave,
I agree. If you find a shop that absolutely won’t let you in the work area, it may be because there has been an accident and insurance claim. Every shop must operate with insurance and if there has just been a claim, I suspect the insurers can be real hard a$$ about it.
Porsche mechanics range the whole gamut, just like us. Some love being in the middle of customer interaction, others would prefer being in a locked room. Just as a shop should respect customer individually, customers should respect mechanic’s. A mechanic must be productive; you don’t want to pay $100/hour for him to BS with you. This is even more important if he is working on someone else’s car.

Randy, I suspect Jim’s PO had an unpleasant experience. Jim, do you know why?

Bill,
E-mail me your experiences. Most of these shops are former employees from ’87 and earlier. Good guys. They learned from me and I from them. They made a good living wrenching, and we all had a good time. No one was ever injured, happy customers, fun cars, and it was good for all. Rennenhaus usually had about 10 employees; I think it got to 16 occasionally. Mostly 911s with a good smattering of 356, 914-6, race cars, and others. There were never any cars other than Porsches (except for the shop VW.)

Paul, thanks, those were fun times.
There is you and rs911t’s engine that are Pelicans. Who else?

Ronin,
Please don’t paint everyone the same color. You just may not be near a good shop. The purpose of an “Ideal Shop” is to not screw anything up, fix the problems, and provide good service, all at an affordable price and in a timely manner. Is the world perfect? NO. There are some incompetents, slackers, and even criminals in the auto business. The same is true for a few customers. The question is; IF you were to take your 911 to a shop or dealer, how would YOU like to see it?

Jim, Ronin, David,
Take, for example, a guy like Kurt V. He lives 100+ miles from the closest Porsche 911 part. He has the inclination, skills, tools, and willingness to ask on this Forum in order to build and keep his 911 in top form. Others feel the need to trailer their 911 from NY to Stoddard or Utah to Andial.
As I said in my first post;
“Most of us DIY for one of two reasons: It saves labor costs or you feel YOU can do what YOU want better than anyone else. Occasionally almost everyone takes their Porsche into a shop for something. The reasons may be specialized skills or tools (alignment, A/C, etc.), you just don’t want to deal with it (new baby, new job, etc.), you have exhausted your diagnostic or mechanical skills (what the he!! Is going on here?), and many more.”
When a shop screws something up they fix it, when you screw something up – you pay. No one is perfect. Did Porsche deliver perfect chain tensioners?


David,
With three Stahlwille “tire irons”, a hand bead breaker (plastic shoe), and some leather pads you can change a tire on a Fuchs with never a scratch. A good tire machine can do it even better with less effort. You are correct; there is no substitute for a good tire balancer.

John,
Right on!
Those are the characteristics of a mechanic that the “Ideal Shop” has working on your 911.



Let’s not bad mouth anyone.
Let’s not promote anyone.

The purpose of this thread is to define the ideal shop or dealer using your experience and imagination.

Best,
Grady

[pwd72s]

I will confess to having followed the mechanic rather than a shop itself. The guy in this area I trust most with my car changed shops. He went to work for a shop that specializes in race car work, a shop that shuns most street cars. I called the owner of this shop, and literally begged to let my car in, so the mechanic I respect could work on it. The shop owner relented. It made my day when after my first visit to the shop, the owner said: "You know, I need to buy your car"...