Front Camber problems-Here are the facts, any suggestions?

[efhughes3]

I took my car in for 4 wheel alignment and corner balance. Got the dreaded call from the shop stating "we have a problem". It seems that the rear went fine, but on the front, they cannot get the RH more than -.5 degree, and the LH they can't get any less than -1 degree. This is how the car was when I brought it in. The only change I made to the front end was the new monoball cartridges, and the car actually felt (has felt) ok.

I called Chuck Moreland, and the first questions he had are whether the tech and the machine are up to snuff. I truly don't know the answers.....the techs have been around Porsches quite a bit, but may be used to working with newer cars...the machine, ??

Truthfully, they're stating they can't go any further than this, and I actually appreciate the honestly, opposed to trying to hide the fact. They are sure there is something not right with the pickup points or such, that is causing this. I've decided to call it a day with them on this, and pick the car up. Again, I've no reason to believe there is a problem with the shop, but it would seem that bodywork-type repairs are out of their field of expertise. I'd just as soon attempt the diagnosis myself, to the best of my capability. Heck, it's not my expertise either, but I work cheap.

Chuck's other initial observation over the phone was that I could have a bent strut, but that probably wouldn't explain the fact that the RH side is to the positive side. Chuck also has suggested I look at my height, as lowering is going to skew things using stock struts. For the record, my front heights were 24 3/4" LH and 24 7/8" RH.

Now, the last thing here is that I know that some of you may be thinking the car is bent. I am positive that this tub has not been in a wreck that has comprimised it's integrity. There is NO evidence of any sort of wreck. Maybe it was built on a Friday in Stuttgart back in 7/84 prior to a celebration?

At any rate: Has anyone experience anything of this sort? Any other ideas?

[masraum]

I can't offer any specific info, but good luck. And as low as your front end is if you had a problem of some sort, I'd expect it to be that you had too much neg camber, not too little.

I'd get a second opinion.

I once had a shop put my '88 on the rack and give me a print out that had my car all over the map, neg camber, positive camber whacky toe and caster readings, but using a square and level and measuring and remeasuring it was obvious that even though I couldn't manage the precision that their machine could that they weren't even close.

[efhughes3]

Thanks Steve: After I look at the car, and maybe play with height (maybe a good excuse to buy a SmartCamber setup from SRP???), I'll go to another shop.

[aircooledsonly]

When you lower a 911 and can't get the neg camber out you'll need to pull the top perch plate and cut a slice off the outboard side.This will you to move the top of strut further out. you can make a simple tool to push top of strut out . use 1/2 " conduit, notch ends to fit top washer, cut center section out, get a pieceof 1/2 or 5/8 allthread and 2 nuts,insert between land r washers thghten nuts ,loosen one strut ,adjust to spec, then repeat same on other side. Jay Moore

[Tyson Schmidt]

They should have done an SAI check while doingf the caster sweep. That will tell you if you have a bent strut. The SAI should be very nearly identical left to right. If not, then the strut is bent.

If the car is not level, it will also throw off the camber readings, but it would have to be pretty low on one side to get that big of a camber discrepency.

[efhughes3]

Thanks Tyson, I'll tuck this in the vault for my next step.

[Tom '74 911]

Ed -
I think we "refreshed our suspension" at the same time last fall. I know you probably are much more knowledgable than me but. . . I've had alignment issues as well - different than yours though. My advice, comming from a person who lives 200 miles from the middle of nowhere as far as good Porsche mechanics are concerned, is to do as much troubleshooting yourself as possible. Verify ride height - measure from the torsion bars, not fenders which can be bent, spend some time and try to get some "ballpark" existing alignment specs of your car and maybe try to tweek it yourself.

Check this thread & maybe donate $10:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=97217

Short version of my story: My car pulled to the right. I took it to a highly recommended alignment shop w/the hopes that they could fix it - a full 3hr. drive (each way). After spending the entire day there (8:30-6:30), they finally gave in and said they couldn't figure it out. They tried everything. I pleaded w/them to give me something, anything to look for and they couldn't. They said as far as they could see, everything was straight and looked great. To their credit, they didn't charge me much! I went home, took some measurements, adjusted the ride height (the rear wasn't level) and no more pull!

So I guess, in my experience, when chasing weird issues, unless you've got access to a great Porsche mechanic that can look at the big picture, educating yourself is the best route. That's why this board is such a great resource.

Tom

[SC-targa]

Ed,

What alignment do you want to achieve? More or less neg camber?

Jerry Kroeger

[Tyson Schmidt]

Originally posted by Tom '74 911
Check this thread & maybe donate $10:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=97217

Short version of my story: My car pulled to the right. I took it to a highly recommended alignment shop w/the hopes that they could fix it - a full 3hr. drive (each way). After spending the entire day there (8:30-6:30), they finally gave in and said they couldn't figure it out. They tried everything. I pleaded w/them to give me something, anything to look for and they couldn't. They said as far as they could see, everything was straight and looked great. To their credit, they didn't charge me much! I went home, took some measurements, adjusted the ride height (the rear wasn't level) and no more pull!

Tom

Tom, it sounds like your problem was that your wasn't properly corner balanced, and when you reset the rear ride height, you brought it back in.

That shop you took it to likely didn't even think of this possibility. It's much less common (corner-imbalance) on coil spring cars that make up the majority of cars on the raod, so most alignment technicians never have to deal with it.

[911pcars]

Originally posted by SC-targa
What alignment do you want to achieve? More or less neg camber?

My same question to Ed's statement, "...but on the front, they cannot get the RH more than -.5 degree, and the LH they can't get any less than -1 degree."

On many cars, you can't normally get a lot of neg. camber without some chassis mods. MHO. If the shop can't adjust to factory specs (more conservative than the above), something is bent. Find out if anything is wrong before performing workaround chassis surgery.

Ride height adjustments are usually performed before alignment. A DIY tripod setup will indicate if height adjustments are influencing these specs. Jack up the rear of the car from a mid point between the rear wheels so the car is supported at three points - 2 front wheels and jack. Then compare the LF and RF ride heights. They should be about the same. Repeat for the rear end. Since each corner height adjustment will affect the others to some degree, a tripod lift removes the lifted end of the car from the equation. If there aren't any large descrepancies from previously unknown attempts to adjust, then you can discount ride height adjustments affecting the alignment specs.

Inspect the struts as Tyson suggested. A slightly tweaked chassis (previous collision damage?) is a possibility as well.

Sherwood

[efhughes3]

Again, thanks for the input. First of all, I want to clarify the car drives fine, the reason for even going in was to align the rear, and corner balance. This issue with the front camber then showed up...

I was looking for -1 degree both sides in front, but as noted, can't get more than 1/2 degree on RH, but can't get less than 1 degree (both figures negative) which makes it tough to even things out-stock, agressive, or otherwise.

The other point here is that the tub has not been wrecked, at least severely enoguh to cause visual damage. I've been all over it, and if something had been repaired, I think it would be evident. So, I was looking for feedback on other things to look for. For the record, they did do the SAI check, and nothing showed.

My first job at this point is to check ride height, and I'm going to focus on the A arms to make sure they're at least horizontal, if not down slightly. The fender measurements (I know these aren't scientific) are now 25" both fronts, 24 11/16" LR, 24 3/4" RR.

[Rot 911]

Ed, I just got mine aligned a couple of weeks ago by a guy that I personally know to do excellent 4 corner alignment work. He even let me follow him around and under the car. The best we could get in the front was left: -1 3/8 and right: -11/16. I am looking for -1 on both sides. I will do what has been suggested here and in other posts and grind out the opening in the strut mount to make some additional adjustments.

[efhughes3]

Thanks Kurt-I'll have to expand my search wording, I guess. I tried looking up "camber problems" and "unequal camber". I'd like to see some of the other fixes, like cleaning out the strut holes.

[greglepore]

Assuming that you don't want more than -.5, is a half degree camber difference side to side any real issue other than on a race car?

[efhughes3]

Originally posted by greglepore
Assuming that you don't want more than -.5, is a half degree camber difference side to side any real issue other than on a race car?

With my driving skills, probably not

But, the idea here in spending a few dollars on Elephant Bushings all around as well an monoball cartridges front and rear, and then the CB and 4 wheel alignment was to get a good, solid platform on which to hone my skills. Maybe it's nothing, but on paper, I'm kinda bummed. It'll get fixed, but I was looking for ideas, which this board has generously provided again.

[911pcars]

"...but on the front, they cannot get the RH more than -.5 degree, and the LH they can't get any less than -1 degree."

...and
"I'd like to see some of the other fixes, like cleaning out the strut holes."

If your target is -1º and RH max is -.5º and LH max is -1º, than you're looking for anther -5º on the RH side. The quick fix to achieve your desired numbers is to grind the RH inboard strut opening enough to achieve the -1º you're looking for, or if you're lucky, clean out the strut holes. Then you'll have 1º neg. camber on both sides. Case closed.

IMHO, if you want to do it the right way, find out why you have descrepancies between LH and RH strut towers. It's impossible to eyeball and compare point-to-point dimensions if indeed the front end was tweaked and repaired in a prior collision or mishap over some curbing. The factory should have dimensional specs, and there are repair shops with chassis alignment fixtures and techs who should know how to repair it. If you're interested, maybe your alignment shop can refer you to such a place.

Sherwood

[Chuck Moreland]

There is a problem. Each side is at the end of it's respective range, but they are at opposite extremes, and still .5 degrees apart.

Something is wrong. Bent chassis, bent strut, broken alignment guy, equipment out of calibration. I'd find the core problem before implementing any compensating fixes.

[efhughes3]

Chuck: That's the plan, after I crawl around checking stuff, measuring stuff, it's going to another shop.