Well, I'm happy to report that the T1000 flush gun worked like a champ. I flushed 1/2 gal of mineral spirits in each direction then did a final flush with the Clean and Flush product from Autozone that has a little ester oil in it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206284905.jpg

So Mark, is the flush strictly gravity fed? I'm a little confused as to how the process works.

No, pressurized air (shop compressor) at 100 PSI. Scroll back and you'll see the air fittings and control valve on pg 4.

OK I see it. So you pour in the flush, close the valve and open the pressure? It looks like you have a bottom valve as well. Do you pressurize and then open the lower valve?

The lower valve is just for convenience to keep the flush from running out when changing the connection line to the condenser.

I like the T1000.... in the picture you are flushing the whole system minus the pump and rear condensor... right? Will the T1000 push the flush liquid past the exp. valve in both directions? I guess it does.. but just asking.

Nope, rear condenser only - everything else is being replaced.

"flush liquid past the exp. valve in both directions"

Do not flush an expansion valve.

For general information, the following A/C components should not be flushed: expansion valves, receiver driers (including Procoolers), nor compressors. Also modern parallel flow condensers/evaporators do not flush well due to the flushing fluid taking the path of least resistance among the many parallel paths thereby not cleaning out the other paths. This is particularly the case if one of paths is clogged or blocked. If one is going to flush an evaporator remove the expansion valve before doing so.

Bunch of sourcing and design questions
 

This is an exceptionally well done thread. Some top notch advice. My research points toward Griff being one of the top A/C guys around so to have his input is a big plus. I was curious about a few things however:

• I hope this doesn't put you on the spot, Mark, (and Griff too, I suppose) but why didn't you buy the entire "Mr. Ice" Project components from www.griffiths.com instead of mixing and matching from different vendors? Did the component adjustments make a big difference in cost?
• Griff, do you offer a kit type discount if we buy it all from you?
• Griff, it looks like the protector plate for the fender mounted condensors are not the same as shown on your website. Did you find that by changing the shape for rock protection meant more air flow and better cooling?
• Is it universally true that the A/C shops are going to do a marginal to poor job and that it makes sense to do the evacuation and charging ourselves?

Thanks again guys for a fabulous thread. You have no idea how many of us are struggling with the same problem!:cool:

rbuswell,

Good questions. I can't answer for Mark however we worked with him so he could have the system he wanted.

In answer to Griffiths questions:
i) do you offer a kit type discount if we buy it all from you?
Yes. The procedure for designing a system for your 911 or 930 starts off with gathering information about your car and climate through the Mr. Ice Project Question form http://www.griffiths.com/porsche/ac/ice/mricequoteform.html
Based on the current configuration of ac system, car, heat load characteristics, the condition of your present system. From there we draft up a proposal which includes our recommendations and "options" which you can add or delete to your customized system; based on your budget and objectives. All proposals include a base package of components (barrier hose sets matched to your car, drier, R134a conversion oil, charge port adapters, pressure switches, mechanical and electrical hardware, installation guidelines, etc.). The base package is pre-discounted ; we have already grouped together the items have reduced the prices in comparison to buying the items individually. With the "options" we have also offer discounted prices provided you purchase them at the same time; logically it makes sense to buy and install your ac components at one time and do the job right the first time.

ii) Griff, it looks like the protector plate for the fender mounted condensers are not the same as shown on your website.
The "Stone Guard" shown on the website may be one of our first designs, subsequently we tested other designs and found we could achieve the same protection however allowing for more air flow; stone guards are custom made by you when you install system since there are a various fender shapes out there (narrow body, carerra, turbo, custom, etc); we provide you all the materials with our systems and installation guidelines (plenty of pictures and text) as well.

iii) Is it universally true that the A/C shops are going to do a marginal to poor job and that it makes sense to do the evacuation and charging ourselves?
No. It is not true that shops do marginal work, at least not the shops we sell through or recommend. AC work is like any other work; there are procedures to follow, system theory and necessary tools. You can find shops that do marginal work on anything (tire balance, bodywork, valve jobs). I've seen some of the best shops (in terms of time in the business and reputation) fail at doing the work properly as well as handling the customer properly.
There is a universal truth that the stock system does not perform well therefore whether it is a shop, OE dealership or DIY working on a stock system the results are typically the same; poor.
The learning curve for the average DIY with the AC system is long. Although some DIY's may have success the first time out of the gate, the numbers are few and those who have had success have yet to hit a wall hard enough to know better. If you are a DIY and you are considering do the evacuation, charge and test procedures you logically have to add up the costs for equipment: evacuation pump, accurate gauge set, electronic leak detectors, dyes and dye lights, accessory tools (and it you want to do it all legally: recovery equipment), text books, etc. and then the cost of your time. If you are looking at these procedures simply for the self-satisfaction quotient then you can't place a cost on it. But, if you are looking at it from a cost standpoint then there is not benefit to go down that road; let a pro handle it and work with him. Save your money for something else, like something nice for the spouse since she let you use her credit card to buy your new ac system, maybe some golf lessons, or some wise investment with the next bull market (did I say "bull").

Well as I stated at the start of this thread, there are lots of options to choose from and my "plan" has gone through numerous revisions. I had never intended to go with a full system kit from any one vendor (not that there is anything wrong with that). My first objective was to add more condenser capacity as my research says this is the #1 weakness of the 911 A/C system. Secondary objectives were conversion to barrier hoses and upgrading to higher efficiency serpentine evaporator and front condenser units.

My inital plan called for an underbelly condenser from PerformanceAire which would require re-routing of the high pressure lines so I pre-purchased a hose crimper from another Pelican (thanks Thomas) and I planned on fabricating all new barrier hoses myself.

Then I contacted Charlie at Griffiths out of curiosity for a quote on his Duehl Kuehl condensers. I was a little concerned with the clearance issues of an undermounted condenser along with concerns over lack of air flow in stop and go traffic here in ATL. I was expecting a huge price differential in the underbelly vs Duehl Kuehl system but with Kuehl's off-season pricing it was a good value. The only catch was he only sells the condenser kit with a barrier hose kit. Not exactly what I wanted at the time but after the fact, I'm glad I went in this direction from a time consideration. I've got two full weekends of work in the project without fabrication of new hoses.

Charlie's responsiveness in providing the quote and following-up by phone, email and PM here before and after the sale has been remarkable. To give equal time, I have also spoken to Ron and RennAire and Rock at RetroAir in the past and both were equally generous with their time on the phone. We are lucky to have their expertise and product options.

I chose the DD front condenser based on its size and good reviews here and I was not going to go with the ProCooler and then changed my mind at the 11th hour b/c I decided to convert to 134a (yet another change in plans) and figured the ProCooler would help. While some may argue if it is such a good product, why don't all auto makers use them? I think they don't need to b/c of condenser size and good air flow in conventional A/C systems. And finally, if Jim Sims advocates the concept of a subcooler in our cars - that's good enough for me!

My final mid stream project change was to go with a Denso factory rebuilt compressor obtained from my local MB mechanic at his cost - how could I resist.
My 21 year old compressor with 165k already past it's useful life - why risk it?

So, at the end of the day, I might have been better off in terms of $$$ to go with a complete kit but how much fun would that have been? :D

RE the fender rock guards, the kit is supplied with rock guard blanks to be cut and fit by the installer as the fitment from car to car may vary.

Superb answers
 

Mark & Griff:

Fabulous answers. Keep up the good work!

Bruce, I'd like to take you up on your offer as I am planning on charging next weekend - PM sent.

Thanks!

Project Update:

I plan to charge the system this weekend. All that is left on the install is to drain any oil in the rebuilt compressor, put the correct amount of ester in (6 oz.) connect the high pressure and suction lines and, at the last possible moment, connect the high pressure lines to the ProCooler then follow the recommended evac and charge procedures.

Given all the fiddling around with the DD condenser fittings I want to make sure I did not compromise the brazed fittings causing a leak before opening the shipping vacuum on the ProCooler.

So, here's the plan:

1) Fill the compressor with oil, install and connect the H & L hoses.
2) Pressure test the system for leaks using Nitrogen, BUT bypass the ProCooler on the initial test by connecting the two high pressure ProCooler lines together using a coupler.
3) If the DD condenser connections pass the pressure leak test, connect the ProCooler lines and test again. If the first test fails, I'll have the opportunity to correct the condenser connection problem before opening the ProCooler and potentially ruining the dessicant.

I'm hoping the correct size coupler for the two #6 hose fittings will be an easy hareware store find.

Specs shown here would indicate I need a 5/8" thread coupler to join two #6 fittings.

http://www.royalbrassandhose.com/catpdf/RBH%20Air%20Conditioning%20375-402.pdf

Good luck on getting it! I've called three times this week to see if anyone can tell me when it might ship....it's been in "picking order status" for 8 days and all customer no-service can tell me is the only thing they can do is email the supplier to find out the status and call me back....then no one calls me back WTF? :(

Pretty crappy internet order fulfillment service!

Hope I didn't lead you astray

UPDATE: Oh my, a call back......est delivery 4/3 but will try to expedite and should receive earlier.

UPDATE UPDATE: Just checked order status again. After 8 days in "picking order" status followed by a telephone call yesterday that is was shipping the system now shows "backordered" status !

The Snap On Air Conditioning Training Manual arrived yesterday. It is great read for a DIY'er. Neat section on Problem Diagnosis - common problems and typical gauge readings for trouble shooting.

Also posting my desert duty condenser rail road crossing casualty here (covered in seperate thread). Think twice about lowering your ground clearance as this could happen to you too!

DD Unit installed before lines hooked up and crash bar lowered to facilitate hose connections and protect condenser

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207083696.jpg

After rail road crossing

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207082634.jpg


Griff's front serp condenser arrives tomorrow & I'll put everything together in stock configuration. :D

.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207083123.gif


Weather is not cooperating in ATL for good charging conditions. We have been in the 40 -50's with rain. 134a PT charts start with an ambient range of 70 - 80. After all this work, it would be a shame to do a less than stellar job charging the system.

Mark,

How big were the spacers that you used with the DD condensor, if you used spacers?
I'm trying to sort out my clearance as I am lowered. I would like to maximize clearance for obvious reasons.

I used a few addl washers on the rock guard b/c the spacers provided were not enough to lower the cage. Just measured the big washers I used to lower the crash bar at the mounting points...I had dropped it 3/4" from stock.

Kuehl front serpentine condenser arrived today. Thanks once again for the great service. Absolutely no problems with the hose fitment.....took all of 30 minutes to install.

Here's a couple of pics of the OEM tube & fin condenser, Kuehl's front condenser and my damaged desert duty unit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207188882.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207188962.jpg

My accident this weekend may very well have been a fluke occurance, but I will rest easier now not worrying about front clearance issues! Skid plates go on next as soon as they arrive for further protection.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207189081.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207189143.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207189185.jpg

Great job Mark. But it's hard to sympathize with someone putting A/C in their car when it's still 22F here!!! (just kidding of course)

Addl observations of the OEM or Kuehl front condenser vs the thicker DD model.

Even with approx 1/4 spacers needed to drop the rock guard down to accomodate the 1" thicker unit, the condenser now sits flush on the bottom of the guard. Note in last pic that the factory set up has about 3/4" of air space between the bottom of the condenser and the rock guard providing an addl margin of protection.

Spacers needed to drop cage
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207308998.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207309574.jpg

Desert Duty mounted - rock guard flush with bottom of condenser
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207309083.jpg

Air space between cage and condenser. Condenser sits above the crash bar in the factory set up.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207309152.jpg

My 1987 is totally stock, except for the crash bar. The crash bar was lowered 3/4" at the time of impact, BUT I had not yet come up with a solution to the center mount. Center bar mount bolts to tub through the trunk. When the bar is lowered the holes no longer line up. Had the center point been mounted at the time of impact the condenser damage would probably have been reduced, but the tub would likely have been damaged at the mounting point.

I got the book last night... there is a lot of good info. in there.. I now have 10x the number of questions I had before. I see now why knowledgeable AC shops are not easy to find... there is a lot to know.

What adjustments need to be made to the Expansion Valve to handle R134. I bought the new Rennaire Evap from Pelican and it came with a new Expansion Valvue. Also bought the procooler, barrier hoses, dessert duty, sanden 507, and a new rear lid condensor...

I don't think you have to adjust it, and I don't see an adjustment on it.
I have the same kit, but I'm reusing the origonal 930 halfbay rear condenser and put a 10" fan under it since the serpentine ones are so $$.

If you bought the kit new from Rennaire I think they ask you what refrigerent you plan to use when you make the order.

Call them before you install it to be sure.
830.522.0300

bought from Pelican, but didnt buy the kit... did seperate because I ordered over a few months and changed my mind and added some things as I went along... does anyone have clear documented pics of the hose mounting and procooler install?

Yep, check here, good pics

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=304231

Here's a shot of my procooler that I just installed.

The hose coming in from the top is coming from the front condensor to be filtered in the reciever dryer portion of the procooler.

The hose that travels by to the left and doesn't hook up to anything in the picture is the high pressure hose coming from the rear condensor and going to the front condensor.

The other hose conected to the top of the procooler goes to the expansion valve and then through the evaporater to chill everything...

The big hose on the side comes from the evaporator to cool off the procooler, and the bottom hose is the low pressure or suction hose and it returns to the compressor.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207712832.jpg

I'm curious why instead of a ProCooler why can't you use a small heat exchanger with the cool evap. return on one side and hot high side on its way to the expansion valve? Maybe there would be too many connections and parts..to fit in the wheel well. If you used a separate small heat exchanger then you could use a standard r/d.

I did just about everything you've done to your AC system and it still didn't blow enough cold air to my satisfaction. (the air was cold but the volume of air coming from the vents was low)

Unfortunately, I had a dealer installed underdash vent system that originally required the dealer to remove the knee pads and then install their under dash unit.

I found a factory underdash vent system, a pair of knee pads and what a difference in the stream of air coming from the vents. The factory design is far superior in air flow and worth the investment for those with the dealer unit.

It was money well spent.

Sounds like you are describing Jim SIm's subcooler. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=351589&highlight=subcooler

yes, yes... exactly - perfect home brew "ProCooler" - thanks for the link..

Project update: Well, unfortunatley nothing to report :(. Charging delayed by weather. Its 56 degrees as I sit here today watching the Masters and doing taxes. And, we're supposed to have a freeze on Tuesday:mad:.

Waiting for for temps of 85+ to charge. Was planning on vacuuming and leak testing this weekend then waiting for warmer temps to charge but could not find the time.

Stay tuned

Well, I spent the weekend getting this A/C project rolling. When it was described as a dirty job, that was a gross understatement. I needed Mike Rowe to help. There must have been a yard of crap inside the front fender,collected since 1980. And the hoses were just as filthy. But, everything is now in a pile awaiting the garbageman tonight.

I pulled the 2 long hoses and got them temporarily clamped until I can get back at it tonight. The eveporator wrap will have to wait until I can find a new capillary tube somewhere as mine was pretty fried. Have to call a few hobby stores to find some tubing, I guess.

As I pulled the evaporator box, I made a grisly discovery. There on the bottom was a mummified mouse and a stash of fiberglass insulation as well as a few acorns. Since there are no oaks in my neighborhood, I have surmised that the carcass has been there since I purchased it from the PO whose property was covered in oaks. I actually gagged a bit when I discovered the beast.

Mike, are you referring to the aluminum capillary tube from the thermostat or the protective brass sleeve?

Do you intend to charge the mouse rent ? If the mouse already has a
lease are your going to garnish the rental deposit? Is the rental area
covered by the federal assistance low income housing policy? We had
had one messy fella one year, he left behind rather large chicken bones.
No manners whatsoever.

Kuehl;

I am referring to the protective sleeve which is about .138 diameter.

I cannot figure out how he got in there to begin with. A damn acrobat.

The protective sleeve that goes over the end of the thermostat wire and is then pushed into the evaporator isn't really necessary. My AC guy said it's "nice" but not necessary. When I did my upgrade I didn't use the protective tube and everything is working fine.

You can omit the protective sleeve however we usually find that overtime the capillary tube,
which is filled with refrigerant gas, can break from vibration or from mishandling. When it breaks the gas escapes from the capillary tube and the thermostat switch is then kaput!

We provide a new protective sleeve with the Kuehl evaporators,
Kuehl Evap shown on host's site here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search.cgi?command=show_part_page&please_wait= N&make=POR&model=911M&section=VENTac&page=2&bookma rk=12&part_number=10-7517-910-M207
however you can probably find something in a hobby store or online that may have a thin enough wall to allow for fast temperature transfer; the tubing must have a small enough ID as well.

When inserting the protective sleeve, with the capillary tube inside, insure you are inserting it through the fins of the evaporator and not into one of the evaporator's tubes; insertion depth for capillary tube is approximately 4" from the end of the tube to the top of the evaporator box.


If you wish to read up on the function of the capillary tube its here:
http://www.griffiths.com/achelp/achelp2.html

Everything you ever wanted to know about that little brass protective tube and more right here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=344568&highlight=evap+froze

Sorry to hear about your little friend....all I found was a stash of leaves, whirly oak tree seeds, and three box clips.