Anybody hear of a "Carrera ST"?

[Grady Clay]

Brett,
I omitted: Welcome to the Forum
As you can tell, you will find a lot of help here.

Also … I apologize.
A bit of looking, I could have realized you are in Paris, not Italy.

Best,
Grady

Brett,
J'ai oublié: Bienvenue sur le Forum
Comme vous pouvez le dire, vous trouverez beaucoup d'aide ici.

Et aussi ... je m'en excuse.
Un peu de recherche, j'aurais pu réaliser que vous êtes à Paris, pas l'Italie.

Best,
Grady

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Brett,

Thank you so much.
This is invaluable information.
Even the Porsche Spec Book, Ludvigsen Excellence and Barth Porsche Book don’t have this information.
Please help make it as complete as possible.

Do you have (or can you get) a Porsche ‘Certificate of Authenticity’ (CoA) for your 911?
Please post an image.
Are there decals on the underside of the hood? Other?
Can you remove the passenger-side knee-pad and post an image of the ‘chassis build number’?

Is there any way to tell the original Porsche red for the ’telefon’ wheels?

Brett, can you find information from the Italian importer or the selling dealer(s)?
Was there a ‘window sticker’ for your car?
What does the ‘Warranty Book’ show?
Was there unique ‘Service Information’ or spare parts list?
It would unusual for Porsche to not have a part number for the “Carrera ST” decal and other.
With a (seemingly) unique engine type number, it would uncharacteristic for Porsche to not list the specifications.
I’m sure this will be a challenge but it is a worthwhile adventure.
If we don’t record this information now, it will be lost forever.

Please help fill-in the other information.


To summarize thus far:
911 Carrera ST
Model year 1984
Type 911330 (Normal M491 ‘Turbo-look’ type? In the prior system this would be 1983 RoW coupe.)
VIN WPOZZZ91ZES100490 to WPOZZZ91ZES100499 (Normal RoW sequence ...0001 to ...4033.)
Build number (Need to find sequence.)
Engine Type 930/30. (New number, not previously reported anywhere I can find. Specifications unknown.)
Engine numbers 63Exxxxx to 63Ezzzzz. (What number range?) (Is the first digit unique?)
Transmission Type 915/67 (Normal production number.)
Transmission number 73Exxxxx to 73Ezzzzz. (What number range) (Is the first digit unique?) (Is there “12” for LSD?)
Paint L908, Grand Prix White.
Interior: “Blue Porsche cloth/skai” (Need clarification.) (Is there a code for this?)




This ’84 Carrera ST raises the question: Are there other small ‘Special Production’ series of 911s?
If the Italian importer can get Porsche A.G to build these, so can others.
We know of the twenty 1984 911SC/RS Type 954 and its unique 930/18 engine (basically ‘homologation specials’).
In 1986, Porsche Cars GB was responsible for Porsche developing the 911 Turbo SE (the more widely produced ‘Slant Nose’).
If there are others, what are they? Where are they?


Amazingly it took Jim (Pelican Dualler) finding a wiki post to uncover this where the best Porsche researchers (Ludvigsen and Barth) omitted it.

Best,
Grady

Grady, I think that you may be misinterpreting what has been posted
This looks to me like an importers cosmetic special, like Us dealers putting pin strips and such.

the engine is a non cat, 231hp, RoW 930/20, serial # 63E means it is a MY84, trans is a 915/67 which is the correct RoW trans for that engine

WPOZZZ91ZES100498 is the correct vin for an '84 RoW Carrera Coupe it would be a turbo look if it also has option code M491, the pictured car is obviously not a turbo look



ST,

[kiwiokie]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

This looks to me like an importers cosmetic special, like Us dealers putting pin strips and such.

Hard to imagine the importers having a stash of ducktails laying around in 1984 and taking the time to fit them to the car and paint to match.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by kiwiokie

Hard to imagine the importers having a stash of ducktails laying around in 1984 and taking the time to fit them to the car and paint to match.

ducktails are a commodity, they come from all sorts of places, there is no indication one way or another what the source of the ducktail on those 10 cars might be.

The individual importers can spec their cars as they please, The importer for Great Britain used to spec, wider Fuchs, a whale tail, Bilsteins, and sport seats and sell the car as a 'Supersport' or 'SS'

the US importer has done similar things and even some of the bigger dealerships have put together mostly cosmetic packages. These need to be distinguished from the factory specials like the original ST and RS.

[rfloz]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The individual importers can spec their cars as they please, The importer for Great Britain used to spec, wider Fuchs, a whale tail, Bilsteins, and sport seats and sell the car as a 'Supersport' or 'SS'

My British acquaintances seem to think a "Supersport" is a Turbo-Look and a "Sport" is the car you described. See, generally, impactbumpers.com, and search
"Supersport".

[kiwiokie]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The individual importers can spec their cars as they please, The importer for Great Britain used to spec, wider Fuchs, a whale tail, Bilsteins, and sport seats and sell the car as a 'Supersport' or 'SS'

the US importer has done similar things and even some of the bigger dealerships have put together mostly cosmetic packages. These need to be distinguished from the factory specials like the original ST and RS.

I thought the UK SuperSport package was simply the specification of options currently available from the factory and not modifications done by the importer on a standard car delivered to them. Not so?

[Grady Clay]

Bob,

You are correct.
Porsche Cars GB was also responsible for several other ‘specials’ that became limited production. Most notable (in my mind) was the ‘911 Turbo SE’ (Sports Equipment) complete with the 330 hp engine ‘Sportkit’.


Sorry, my typo above and I got excited to find a ‘new’ engine type.
There are many out there that we don’t know about and Porsche has forgotten (and lost the information).
I think it is up to US to chase these things down when a ‘Carrera ST’ shows up.


The dealers always feel that Porsche says: “This is the way it is, take it or leave it.”
However, the relationship between the Factory and the Importers & Dealers is not a one-way-street.
It is all about marketing and what Porsche can profitably build, what the Importer can legally import in a particular market and what the Dealers can shove out the door at a profit.

The ‘80s were a particularly turbulent period for Porsche A.G. A transition had to be made from Fuhrmann (first non-Porsche/Piëch to run Porsche K.G/A.G.). American Peter Schutz was it.
By ’83, Peter Schutz’s policy of reviving the 911 was in full swing. Everyone noticed the plethora of new models, cabriolets, slant-nose, specials, racers, Indy, aero-engines and more.
All this probably got more intense in ’84 when Peter had to ‘kiss-and-make-up’ with the dealers after the abortive attempt to create “Porsche Centers”.

Sure, there were lots of ‘Dealer Specials’, ‘Importer Specials' and others but they were ALL Porsche Specials.

I think it useful to document the ‘less-well-known’ specials also.
I like to think every Porsche is special.

Best,
Grady

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by rfloz

My British acquaintances seem to think a "Supersport" is a Turbo-Look and a "Sport" is the car you described. See, generally, impactbumpers.com, and search
"Supersport".

you may be right, i'm just going by my 30yr old memories

[M5guy]

Here is an "importer special" I used to own.

You could not buy a GT3 in the US in 1999 due to bumper height. So Champion ordered 3 of these 996s in white with sunroof delete and factory installed aerokit, but not the engine, suspension, or other GT3 doodads. The mothership caught on and prevented Champion from ordering any more.

[brett75]

I'm on vacation, up to the beginning of march, a.s.a. come back I'll post the numbers
Bst Rgds
Brett75

[brett75]

quote (The ‘80s were a particularly turbulent period for Porsche A.G. A transition had to be made from Fuhrmann By ’83, Peter Schutz’s policy of reviving the 911 was in full swing. Everyone noticed the plethora of new models, cabriolets, slant-nose, specials, racers, Indy, aero-engines and more.
All this probably got more intense in ’84 when Peter had to ‘kiss-and-make-up’ with the dealers after the abortive attempt to create “Porsche Centers”.) unquote.

The fact that an official Porsche Dealer decided to "create" a mini series of ten cars was certainly not done in the back of Porsche Germany.
You've got first the cosmetic (side decals, and duck tail, painted wheels) but also the engine and Motronic upgrade about 250/260 hp
I can't imagine that Porsche was not in the confidence. But as Grady's opinion which is for me near the truth (but I'm not an authority) at that time Posrche in difficulty, left some good dealers to out-pass what they were not able to produce. This kind of cars emblematic (easy to recognize in the street a VERY GOOD PROMOTION for the 911) are True/false Porsche Series (and the modifications have certainly been approved by the German P.Authorities), no doubt there are somewhere others (in France you've got the Kenwood serie with special decals and sold by SONAUTO the official dealer).
It will be very difficult for Porsche to admit and recognize that they have existed after nearly 30 years.
But who knows.
Nevertheless its a wonderful car to drive, light with a sensational acceleration, and I supposed the same feeling than the original 2.7 RS at his time (unfortunately I never drove one).

For Grady, I've got on my USB key this picture of the inside, to show which cloth it is. But sorry I don't have the exact ref. The Flash lighten the color in fact it's darker.
For the little story, the decals and the wheel paint should have been blue and nor red but I preferred the red!!
Bst Rgds
Brett75

[Grady Clay]

I searched
SONAUTO Porsche Kenwood serie
and
3.2L Kenwood 1984

and found:
http://www.paradis-porsche.info/documents/programmeParadisPorscheanglais09.pdf
and
Google Translate

Special Series from French wiki

Série spéciales[modifier]
1981 - 1982 : Série « Ferry Porsche » ou « jubilée », tirée à 200 exemplaires pour l'Europe dont 14 pour la France. Couleur gris météor, intérieur semi cuir burgundy, jantes ATS en 15" (7" à l'avant et 8" à l'arrière) appuie-tête signé par Ferry Porsche.

Special Series [edit]
1981 - 1982: Series "Ferry Porsche" or "Jubilee" at 200 copies for Europe, including 14 for France. Meteor gray, burgundy leather interior semi, ATS rims 15” (7" front and 8" rear) head restraints signed by Ferry Porsche.



1984 : Début des séries Flachbau aux phares encastrés un look plus moderne : Une petite série améliorée pour l'Italie, la Carrera ST (Senza Turbo), est produite en commémoration de la mythique RS pour les dix ans de celle-ci (1973-1983). Dix exemplaires avec plaque numérotée sur la boîte à gants sont vendus. Couleur blanc Grand Prix et équipés de la queue de canard avec logo ST et bandes latérales rouges ou bleues. Les numéros de série vont de 490 à 499.

1984: Start of series Flachbau lighthouses built a more modern look: A small improvement series for Italy, the Carrera ST (Senza Turbo), is produced in commemoration of the legendary SR for the ten years of it (1973 - 1983). Ten copies with numbered plaque on the glove are sold. Grand Prix White color and equipped with the ducktail T logo and red and blue sidebands. The serial numbers range from 490 to 499.



1985 : Les Kenwood le Mans série spéciale Sonauto : Quinze voitures sont produites.

1985: The Kenwood Le Mans Series special Sonauto: Fifteen cars are produced.



1987 : Les Club sport : La puissance est la même et le poids est celui de la Carrera de 1984 on revient au poids initial de la Carréra de 84 mais on a perdu au passage les sièges AR. Une nouvelle cartographie est développée.

1987: Club Sports: The power is the same and the weight is the Carrera in 1984 we return to the initial weight of the Carrera of 84 but lost on the way the rear seats. A new mapping is developed.



1988 : La série Jubilée de couleur bleu diamant métal : Les sièges sont signés Ferry Porsche.

1988: The Jubilee series of blue diamonds Metal: The seats are signed Ferry Porsche.



1989 : La Speedster : Avec un pare-brise abaissé, des sièges arrières retirés et une capote précisée non étanche, elle existe en version normale et turbo-look.

1989: The Speedster: With a lowered windshield, the rear seats removed and a leaky condom specified, it exists in normal and turbo-look.



The “leaky condom” is from Google Translate.
Fitting.



Brett,
Thanks for those images.
I would like to find the Porsche name and part number for the cloth material.

Have fun (skiing?).
Perhaps Vail or Aspen next winter?

Best,
Grady

[brett75]

I rather had preferred "non waterproof soft top" or something like that, rather than Leaky condom, a little trashy indeed. But funny google translation!!!!
For winter skiing it's French Alps Courchevel.
Bets regards and thanks for those research,we're progressing fast.
Brett75

[giovanni86]

Grady, I think that you may be misinterpreting what has been posted
This looks to me like an importers cosmetic special, like Us dealers putting pin strips and such.

+1


I like this porsche.... I don't think it is something "special" ... in particular I don't think would be correct to pay an higher value for it...

[brett75]

Giovanni86, I posted my contribution in this thread just because some of the participants needed some info concerning the ST, which was not well known and of course because of its rarity. And certainly not to argue about the price, which appears to be now something of most importance for Porsche owners. But because you mentioned it, rarity is a fact and when it's the case obviously the price his higher it's a matter of fact. I've been proposed last year 62k€ for the car by a japanese collectors, who had already one but in poor condition. It's far from the value of a normal 3.2 but it's like that. When I changed my Aston DB5 in 2000 for the Porsche it was a choice at that time the DB5 was about 65k€ now the value is about 260k€ for one in pristine condition. Should I have kept my DB5 and leave Porsche. No definitely not I have preferred to change for Porsche and I proud of it.
Best regards Brett75

[giovanni86]

And certainly not to argue about the price, which appears to be now something of most importance for Porsche owners

You are right....

I don't like to speek about the value of cars... but I think it is part of a discussion about special models....

Jap go crazy for european cars...

[Grady Clay]

Giovanni86 ,

Here is from my post #27 above:

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Sure, there were lots of ‘Dealer Specials’, ‘Importer Specials' and others but they were ALL Porsche Specials.

I think it useful to document the ‘less-well-known’ specials also.
I like to think every Porsche is special.

Best,
Grady

We are discussing the details of a ‘Porsche Special’ 1984 Carrera ST.
I would never presume to criticize your interpretation of a Carrera 3.0 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/585431-74-rs-3-0-clone.html
or make statements as to its ultimate value.
All that does is cause hard feelings to no technical benefit.
In my above post (#27), I tried to put the Carrera ST in historical perspective.

Bertt has done a good job of maintaining his example of a fine 911.
He has also done some significant research.
I think it is up to us to help document his car and possibly find some of the nine others.



Over the decades, Porsche’s ability to manufacture cars has changed.
Originally, Porsche made its ‘best guess’ as to what cars would sell.
Porsche went from almost ‘custom’, hand built ‘Gmünd coupes’ to real manufacturing.
Like most auto manufacturers, Porsche developed a ‘line’ of models.
For example in 1960 you could buy a 356B Coupe, Cabriolet or Roadster body in both conventional steel or a part-aluminum ‘GT’ version. You could order a ‘Normal’, a ‘Super’, ‘Super 90’ engines and ‘GS’ or ‘GT’ Carrera engines. You could even order a type 718 RS-60 Spyder for the street.

‘Specials’ then were really unique and may include the Beutler-Porsche, Abarth-Porsche and more.


As the manufacturing process matured, every car built is a ‘special’. They are unique, built-to-spec cars. Yes, importers order ‘stock’ for their dealer’s inventory. Those are the importer’s best-guess of what mix will most easily sell off a dealer’s ‘lot’. This decision is made in conjunction with Porsche’s ‘Export Sales’ staff and the dealers. Naturally, the goal is to manufacture the cars that will sell the most and profit everyone in the system the most.

As part of this ‘every-car-is-unique’ system, you can order your own ‘special’ 911. Of course there are constraints. Porsche must be able to build it within their design and manufacturing ability. There are country-specific regulations and more.

If you are a ‘money-is-no-object’ buyer and there are no country regulations, Porsche will accommodate you. Those are real ‘special’ custom cars.



Being a successful automobile manufacturer requires many things. We all appreciate the technical aspects of Porsche (This IS a ‘Technical’ forum after all.) There is more.

Marketing is probably close to top of the list. If you can’t sell the cars in the ‘market’, you don’t do very well. You can have the most technically advanced car but if it doesn’t sell, you won’t be in business long.

Part of this ‘marketing’ is choosing models. At the smallest end of ‘models’ are ‘Specials’. At the largest end of ‘Specials’ are ‘Limited Production’. Without dwelling on semantics, there is no clear-cut division among these designations.

Sure, some models, limited-production and special series are more technically interesting than others. No one argues that the first (lightweight) series of ’73 Carrera RS isn’t more significant than a 1973 911S model. That certainly does not diminish a ‘73S – or a 911T.

The same is true among all the models, limited production, specials, special-orders and custom cars that Porsche built in 1984.

When I ordered my 1968 911 from Porsche, it was ‘special’ to my specifications.

So … let’s not pontificate about if a 911 in more or less ‘special’ or ‘valuable’. Take the facts as they are and the market determines monetary ‘value’.

As I said above:
“I like to think every Porsche is special.”

Best,
Grady

“For winter skiing it's French Alps Courchevel.”
Station ski Courchevel - Station de ski 3 Vallees Savoie - Vacances, sejour ski Courchevel
(In English) Ski resort France Courchevel - Ski holidays France, 3 Valleys ski area - French Alps ski

Aspensnowmass.com

Vail Ski Resort - Colorado Ski Area - Vail Vacation | http://www.vail.com
I first skied (snow-cat) Vail in 1961 and ski-bumed there winter ’68.
G.

[giovanni86]

you are right.... correct approach

You are one of the very porsche expert (I sow yours contribution on ather discussion)


I'm used to write in other forum, there people speek only about the value of their care.... I don't like this....

I want to say sorry....

pelican forum rules

I like the car and I had the opportunity to see one of them when I was young


moreover I'm italian and I would be happy and proud to help you guys if necessary

[brett75]

Thanks to Grady and Giovanni for their contribution and help. For the moment I'll enjoy my vacations in Courchevel, and come back with the numbers you've asked to me Grady beginning of march as promise.
I knew about Aspen which is worldwide famous but never heard of Vail, seemms very attractive but a little far for me!!! send you a lot of snow to you and your wifes today is St Valentin!!!!
Bst rgds

Brett75

[Augustus]

Beautiful car Brett....just beautiful....must be fun to drive!