Why should a repaint decrease a car's value?
 

Everything I read and hear says a repaint decreases a car's value. I can't believe that the factory system in say 1980 is that much superior to the technology available today at reputable shops. I can see where original paint in excellent condition would increase a car's value but not why a well painted car to remove scratches, fading, and door dings should reduce the value.

If someone thinks you are trying to hide something, before and after pictures should handle that issue.

Can someone explain what the factory paint process was and why it is still superior to repainting?

Would a Porsche developed/endorsed standard for painting help maintain the value?

A really top notch documented paint job with before and after photos should increase the value of a car that really needed it imo, but not necessarily up to the cost of the job. Also most paint jobs are mediocre and not documented...and the risk of poor bodywork/rust/hidden damage remains...which is why a pristine original paint car will always be worth more than a repainted car. No hidden monsters.....

You can have all the pics in the world, etc.

but a paint job will always raise questions as to what was underneath.

With decent care, the factory paint on even a 1980 should still look pretty good. With factory paint, any body, crash damage, etc. issues simply become a non-issue. What you see is what you get, end of story.

Plus, I don't think ALL paint jobs always decrease the value. Just probably 99% of the time. If you spend $15,000 on a "remove all parts and repaint" job on a '78 SC, it will increase the value of the car over mediocre original paint. But, most paint jobs are $2500 or less jobs that are (1) done because of some damage, and (2) are inferior to the factory paint. Thus the general rule holds true.

There are two categories of Porsche buyers.

One values originality, sometimes over anything else. Carrera chain tensioners are always a good idea, right? Well, there are some buyers who would look on that as a compromise, not an upgrade. And there's something to be said for this position -- if you obsessively insist on previous owners not doing anything to a car, you can at least be certain that nothing's been screwed up as the consequence of sub-par craftsmanship or laziness.

But most Porsche buyers are guys who have saved up a little money and have always fantasized about having a cool sports car. They're impulse buyers, usually. (It's on the second P-car purchase that they actually do their homework and get the PPI.) These buyers are going to see fresh paint as a plus. It makes the car look less "used." They'll buy primarily based on appearance. A bone-stock 30-year-old 911 with 30-year-old paint is not going to appeal to these guys, no matter how well taken care of it's been.

I think most Pelican owners would fall closer to the first group than the second.

But to your specific point, the quality of a paint job is something that's very hard to verify. The factory's paint quality, while it might not be the absolute best, is still reliably good. Any seller can claim he broke out for a $10,000 high-quality job. Reciepts and photos might help, but you'd be amazed at how far some people will go to perpetrate a fraud.

My .02+ cents.

Jack, I think your comment about the quality of the job being hard to verify goes to the heart of why a repaint job reduces the value; more so than the fact that the factory job was that much better.

Here's my thought on that issue: What if Porsche offered a certification program to businesses that:

1) Had their employees trained by Porsche factory painters
2) Followed painting procedures approved by Porsche
3) Used painting equipment approved by Porsche
4) Completely documented the entire job including repairs made, rust found, before and after pictures, etc. Documentation requirements would be determined by Porsche
5) Issued a certificate to the owner upon completion of the work stating the work was done to Porsche factory standards


Porsche could charge for the certification and training (similar to ISO certified businesses). The businesses could charge more for the work due to the elimination in uncertainty and hopefully the fact that the certified work is considered more valuable in the resale of cars.

I don't know how much this would add to the price of a job but for shops with everything in place but the trained employee, it may not be much. I'm sure there are just as many negatives as positives but I think the current market could support a few of these shops in each major city, especially with the number of older Porsches being kept on the road.

Easy for me to say, I don't own a paint shop.

" Why should a repaint decrease a car's value? " Because Bruce Anderson says it will! That should end this discussion, right? (Tongue firmly in cheek) Honestly, I'm not sure...but today I'm glad I never let those little flaws bug me enough to spend the $ on a respray....

This conversation has always made me laugh.

In my youth, me driving my VW. I'd always stop at the Porsche*Audi dealer when the transport was there unloading "new" Porsches. This was the days before the dockside service center. ( can't remember the correct name ) They'd unload the cars off the carrier and inspect them. About every 3rd. car went the body shop for corrections and improvements. Not dents.
Just flaw and scratch stuff. So those that think they have a virgin paint job. Who knows ?????

Just thought I'd put in my 02c.

If I could find a "stable" painter that's reliable, honest and doesn't think he could make a million on each paint job, I could probably keep him in business for the rest of his life.

Yes, even original porsche paint jobs from the dealers are "touched up." I've seen it done.

One of our PCA members owns the best body shop in town. He tells me he can make more money doing insureance work on Toyotas! I have seen him turn out concours stuff and some things are so bad you can see the problems across the street! Most good painters are artists. It all has to do with how the painter feels about himself the day he's shooting the stuff. (what stuff?)

A lot of the cars we like have been "touched up" in areas you wouldn't believe. My hometown is home to 3 highline dealers that advertise in Autoweek. I know personally that some of these late model wheels that are on porsches advertised in Autoweek have been filled with bondo and painted.

Theres so much painted on a Porsche that a repaint in a different color is a real nightmare. I am driving a very poorly repainted one right now. When I was negotiating the price I promptly knocked off a couple of thousand for the paint job. Its really only good for scuffing up and repainting.

I guess its just the nature of the process, the people concerned with the actual work, and the way its presented that have to do with the value of the repaint job.

Good luck,
David Duffield

Ah, a subject much in my thoughts lately, since the Rolls is going in for new paint - Polar Silver Metallic, baby! - at the beginning of the March (when the SC comes out of storage).

In addition to Jack's comments, if you read the collector car mags, lately everyone's big on patina. They want the car to be completely original, and yet look unused. If the buyer sees himself as a collector (which I've been accused of, but don't see it - I've just got two old cars I drive all the time), then he's going to hate having the car repainted.

If the person's a driver and Porsche enthusiast, I don't think he'll care if the car has been repainted or modded, as long as he and the previous owner have similar philosophical leanings, like concourse nut, DE fan, and so on.

Emanuel

I have to think that the durability of the new color base/catalyzed clear coat systems is far superior to what was available 20 years ago. The quality of the final product on the car though, is entirely dependent upon meticulous preparation and skill of application.

Repainting with a different color requires removal of an awful lot of seals, panels, and hardware to make it look right--masking just doesn't cut it in most cases. This requires a lot of time and/or money. The new paints are expensive, but nothing compared to the prep time involved.

Well when I bought my 912 it had a terrible repaint on it. The repaint was so bad that it was pealing off in large pieces on the fenders.

It was guards red and had a little rust on the doors when i bought it. Other than that it was pretty much good to go body wise. I had the car stripped down to bare metal and removed everything from the doors to windows to rollcage and engine sheetmetal. I had everything repainted Polar Silver Mettalic for less than $3,000 the reason why it was so cheap however is because it took the person who painted it 11 months! Because he was just doing it in his spare time. I'm not complaining however because I saved myself about $2,000 by having him do it rather than a bodyshop who also wouldn't have taken their time and mad it look as best as possible.

old porsche hit the nail on the head. Body shops can make more money painting Toyota's, Honda's, Ford's, than on Porsche. Get em in, get em out.
Insurance companies add to the confusion. They discount a shop's labor rate so they can "refer" customer's to the shop. Try and get your car repaired at a shop that is not on the approved list is a king size hassle and you will have to pay the difference in labor rate. One way to fight that is mention to the insurance company "diminished value" and the fight becomes a "little" easier.
The body shops can't take the time to do the job properly. Porsche were pretty much hand built and it can take a true professional to reassemble them properly. The normal customer doesn't care that there's a 1/16 cap on one side of the hood or door and 3/8's on the other side.
Shop's don't use a painter to prep the car, they use a "hey boy" as people won't pay for the job to be done properly. Ever wonder why it takes 10 days to get a repair done when there's only 10 manhours of labor on the job?

The only way a repaint will not decrease the value of the car is if it is done the SAME way it was originally painted (or close to it!)

That means the car would have to be stripped down to the bare metal: all trim, interior, dash, glass, engine...etc. removed, and put on a rotating thinginy. Door skins should be removed.
Yeah, it can be done, but it costs an arm and a leg. Not to mention the old paint would have to be stripped off as well. All this can end up costing more than the value of the car itself, and the price will almost never be covered in resale value, unless the car is a collector, like a 904 or Speedster.

How can anyone expect a typical repaint to be the same quality as an original paint job? Without removing everything from the body, there will always be over-spray, missed spots, uneven application...etc. That's why a repaint lowers the car's value.

Just my humble opinion.
-Zoltan.

Why not repaint?
 

Again, Paul is right on the mark. BA and his draconian opinion may have jaded many a Pelicanhead. FIND ME one car at Pebble Beach ( CDE ) that has won this very prestigious award that has it's "owiginal" paint job. Find me ONE "hotrod" or nastalga car which, BTW, are as a group, have more $$ invested that has NOT been repainted.
MY .02 is that when it becomes yours, "do what's right for you, and not what BA perceives to be right for him"..

While we're on the subject... If the paint at the factory was applied over a galvanized body part, wouldn't a "down to metal" repaint remove that galvanized layer?
-Chris

This whole thing reminds me of the BS on antiques roadshow where one piece of 18th century furniture is refinished and looks gorgeous but it's only worth $300 while the exact same piece that looks like its been sitting outside since the French Revolution is worth a million

Ferrari guys let their cars sit because they've allowed this mindset to creep in. I think its bullpuckey

Correct me if I missed something here.

Are we talking about a higher value placed on original factory paint in good condition versus the same car repainted? Of course, duh.

However, IMHO, a car that has been repainted (assuming a good job) is going to be worth more than the same car with a weathered, peeling original finish. Which one would you pay more for? I didn't hear anyone say that.

If you answered, "car with original bad paint", then you are more of an "enthusiast" then I.

Sherwood Lee
'69 (repainted)
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcar

I have painted classic cars professionally for a few years while on a working holiday in London. Plus lots of my own cars beforehand.
We did some pretty cool stuff: Aston DB6's, 356, E Types, Austin Healeys, MG T's etc. I loved doing this work, and loved doing it right.
You do need to strip them colmpletely in my opinion. I have never painted a car that wasn't bare metalled, even when the customer insisted we do a "quick blow over" (no such thing, ever!).

My point is that while these cars look awesome, they seem to loose a bit of their magic, especially if they had a couple of scars on them. The scars told a story, and with these sorts of sports cars the story inevitably was an interesting one.

Maybe a bit of it was I now knew who had painted the car: me. Nothing magical about that (unless I have been deluding myself).

Now I really treasure original paint. Problem is, not many people do. In fact I have yet to meet anyone who appreciates the cool swagger of my sun baked suede silver 911 quite as I do. I get nagged to repaint it (which I could easily do, and probably will) all the time. But there's just something about climbing into a car that you know has lived mysteriously somewhere else. How did that scratch get there? Why is there a little scrape on the fender? I dunno. That's half the fun to me I guess.

Matt

Nagnagnagnagnag. Repaint your damn car. I will help. I want to learn. Nagnagnagnag.

There is not enough nostalgia in your paint to hide what a true pimpin' ride it would be with new paint. Besides, it won't leak if you buy new seals.

Nagnagnagnag.

Hehehe

Cam

How-oh-how did I know cam would be the very next poster?
The man has a reputation in this town of drizzling shiney black goop over anything capable of turning a wheel or propagating rust.

;)

Matt: Spoken like a true purist! Bravo!
-Zoltan.

PS: Before my time, the front driver side of my car took a hit, and was repainted. It is a pretty decent fix, but you can see a slight shade difference. So, even though I feel a repaint lowers the value of a car, it didn't stop me from buying my baby!

This issue has only really become pressing to me since my accident:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53844

When I spoke to the other party's insurance company, I made perfectly clear that I was going to get the collision and paint work done at a shop that had experience with Porsches. I settled on taking the car to Autobahn Autobody and Phil has been a great resource and help.

They are a factory approved shop for Rolls-Royce and Bentley and when I spoke to Phil last week he took me on a tour of their facility. There were a couple of Rolls, Bentleys, Ferraris, Jags, and Porsches, all in various states of repair. Their finished products look first class in terms of fit and finish. I am just negotiating how much more it will cost if I get the entire car resprayed in a proper manner.

For me, I think that a quality respray will add to the value of a car as long as it is not being judge for originality. I put it in the same group of "value upgrades."

Mike...buuttt !!!
 

I wiil concur about the quality of paint Phil can put out. He's done my cars for years. However, before you take it there make you do a walk thru so you can account for ALL your parts. Things seem to "get lost" and then "walla" you'll see Phil at Pomona selling Porsche parts. Take pics or video of your car, inside and out, before you leave it.

As far as quality, they probably have the best painters (trainned)in SoCal.

Good luck...BTW, when you see Phil, tell him, "Curt says not to sell my parts at Pomona".....he will give a surprised look, then smile!!!

Curt

Matt,

Kinda reminds me of the Rolling Stones (I think!) - I see a red Porsche and I want it painted black...

No wait, I thought all Porsche's came in any colour you liked as long as its black and some got repainted?

Besides, you know I want to drizzle signal orange all over the '69 :D

Back on-topic, I would take a concours restored car over a concours unrestored "patina" car any day. Mind you, I think this might be because I would feel bad driving the unrestored car, "ruining it".

Cam

The Patina debate is quite topical at the moment.
While I am in no way suggesting our 911's are in the true exotica league, it is interesting to note that by FAR the highest classic car prices lately have been paid to unrestored timewarp machines, such as that bird**** stained Birdcage Maserati or the 'dungeon' Ferrari (can't remember exact details- sitting at wk right now).
That these cars and many more have so exceeded the value of their shiney counterpoint surely adds weight to the patina principle. We are not alone.

Yes, I like concourse cars too. How couldn't you? But I would far prefer to say, drive an E type jag that had been nursed from new, with original leather, wood and paint than a recent 100 point resto job. They just smell so nice- providing the mould hasn't taken hold ;) Why drive an old car if it's new?
Difficult to explain.

Did anyone see that sharkskin matt black Three fifty six Speedster with revamped mechanicals in an Excellence last year? The geezer just refused to repaint it, but it was concourse throughout: the brakes, motor and wiring etc. That car was cruelly cool. I could imagine Steve McQueen using the hood paint to rub the stubble off his sideburns.

Cam: when that sony generation 26 year old chassis of yours starts to 'patina' a little perhaps you will begin to dig the concept of unrestored more than over-bored? ;) :)

Re: Mike...buuttt !!!
 

Thanks for the head's up Curt. I'll mention that to Phil next time I see him!SmileWavy

Matt, I do agree, but to a point.

Thing is, I can't have the patina :) both my 911s are little hussies. The Jag does, however have interior patina (exterior repainted) and I DO love it.

I remember the article on that speedster - it is truely cool, and there are plenty of well restored speedsters out there for those that like it.

I think I am talking about the difference between being petrified that the next stone chip will ruin the "old" paint, vs the "drive it" feeling.

Actually, I have no idea what I am on about. I like 'em all. I fully appreciate the time warp aspect of a concours car; the virtually new feeling of a restoration of a car that will be driven (my preference, I think); the patina of age in a well cared for, low mileage car; the hard worn miles of a well used car; and, in my case with the '69, the rough and ready, good from 10' repaint and interior (at least it doesn't matter if it gets dirty :D).

I think the question is whether a concours car is worth more than an "original" car? I think the reason the "original" cars are worth more is simple - they aren't making them any more and you can't reverse time - they are simply rarer than restored cars. You can make a restored car, but can't make 30 years of lovin'. I appreciate that, but the ability for me to buy such a car is so far out of my reach (eg Paul D's 72S) that it becomes an irrelevance.

So I end up a notch below - cars which could do with a repaint (or heaven forbid, rust repair then repaint - see '75 below :(). Matt's car is a perfect example (no rust though). His interior really is very very nice. Beautiful brightwork and the body is straight. But the paint is, ummm, textured. So what to do? 'Cause Matt likes it, in the perverse way described above. I guess on that basis, the time and money involved aren't worth the incremental enjoyment - if any?

I guess that is the best part about buying a 911 that has had at least two color changes and from not very caring owners.
Best I can tell, my car started life as a grand prix white 1978 SC beauty and was changed to a nauseating metallic fuSChia and finally to a piss poor black with air bubbles in the hood and top which then got scratched to bare metal on its left rear quarter by a dog who lived in the carport with it for the last two years, (hence the name "SCratchy").
I now have a canvas on which to paint a beautiful new black skin and I plan on doing all of the prep work myself and have a good reputable gun shoot a high quality paint on it for me. I am not the least bit SCared to undertake this daunting task because I wil have plenty of nostalgia (and german bier) to reminiSCe about, not to mention the memories my son and I will make together while bringing my fantastic little machine back to life. sc SmileWavy

"You can make a restored car, but can't make 30 years of lovin'. I appreciate that, but the ability for me to buy such a car is so far out of my reach (eg Paul D's 72S) that it becomes an irrelevance."

Cam? Just think of all the money I've "saved" (where is that money now?) by not having my car repainted!
;) Hey, the car isn't for sale...really, So a value put on it by "experts" who write in magazines? Doesn't really matter...unless (heaven forbid) I have to fight an insurance adjuster. There, I think, is the real rub.

To clarify my point, what I am wrestling with is whether to repaint a car I plan to keep and know inside and out. Owning a Porsche makes you somewhat of a perfectionist but I'm not anal about it and I'm not looking for a concourse contestant. I still plan to drive it like hell (over 202k miles now and it had 22k when I bought it in '84)

From 10' away it looks great. It has no rust. Add a bra and it looks even better.

Except I KNOW that the front bumper needs a repaint from a piece of truck retread. The touch-up job shows if the bra is off. There are some door dings that should come out. The rear bumper is fading along the top portion and near the exhaust. There is a scratch on the rear deck lid from 10 years ago when a pool ladder fell over in the garage. That still irks me like it was yesterday every time I look at it. It has stone chips along the front valance. If you get up close and look, these things become obvious. I think it's knowing that these items exist that bug me somewhat, and a total repaint would carry me another 18 years.

Maybe I'll straddle the fence and do a partial on the rear deck lid, front and rear bumper, mirrors, and front valance; then use the dent removal service for the door dings. That way the main sections of the car would still be original.

Thanks for the input, I think this will be my compromise position.

Maybe we need to take a lesson from guitar manufacturers. The Fender Custom Shop has made a ton of money selling "relic" guitars. As background, it is generally acknowledged that older Fender electric guitars (1965 and older...before the CBS buyout of the company) are superior "magical" instruments, and have become prized by players and collectors. Most of these guitars are fairly nicked and scratched nowadays, with finish fade, checking, etc. The Custom shop got the bright idea of, "hey, let's make a brand new guitar then beat it up to make it look old." Sound stupid? They have sold a ton of them, and now other makers are copying the idea. In fact the custom shop has expanded to now sell NOS (new old stock, brand new guitars to original specs), closet classics (looks like it was stuffed in a closet for 35 years), and relics (in varying states of beating). They have also built custom chambers with smoke, acid, etc for rusting parts, aging wood, and have special tools for gouging and scratching. I've heard stories of them whipping guitar bodies with chains and other nonsense (kinky).

So maybe we need to find someone to repaint the p-cars, then add back a few dings, scratches, etc to get the "vibe" back.

Okay...here's my value quandry... say my car gets totaled or stolen. My current value stated carrier is insuring my car for roughly $10,000 under the highest legit offer I've had for the car, the highest he will go, regardless of premium paid. Do I go to him, and say I don't want mere money? I want him to go out there & find a car like mine...a 48,000 mile original 1972 911S, Irish green, full tan leather interior, limited slip, tinted glass, etc. ? Don't think he'd agree to that. BUT, he sure would have his lawyers bring B.A.'s latest EXCELLENCE article on early 911 values into any courtroom. In this case? If you were Judge Judy?
Hmmmmm. Okay, apologies for wandering off topic...but new or old paint, some objects simply aren't replacable. So, how do you determine a value? I hope one columnist's opinion isn't the sole answer. Bruce's values listed on an "excellent" 2.4 911S? I'd be willing to place that money in escrow, payable to Bruce just as soon as he finds such a car. I'm not saying such a car doesn't exist...it may. But a lot of people have been looking for such a car for a long time. And it's people looking for insured compensation after a loss who really suffer from such "expert" opinions.... Guess you've figured it out...Bruce Anderson's opinions on car values are not the word of Allah, not as far as my opinon goes.

Paul, I think this is the point (and see your other post on replacement issues). I would love to own your car or equivalent (and was mentally factoring a multiple of BAs price) but given that price, impossibility of replacement, and that I would thus be too scared to drive it except on special occasions (I guess that is one way to keep the mileage down!), I am not a natural owner for such a car.

Or maybe I am, but not yet - I am still young and want to drive a lot (the '69 is my daily driver :)). It would need to be a, ahem, third Porsche, for me. One for daily, one for fast, and one for love of the marque.

Tally ho, Paul....
 

Paul.. I'm on the same page. If, and that's a BIG "if", som'em were to happen to your "diamond in 'da ruff", and your insurance CO. called, "you know who", you would need a battalion of "US" to refute him. .....sad isn't it. But.....there have been several logical opinions about the repaint, and many very well stated. I suppose in the final analysis, it's "up to the buyer". Our opining really is trivial.

You've gone as far as you can go. You have a value stated policy aka agreed value.
I've dealt with enough insurance companies to find out that the only thing they offer is "mere money".
Either sell your car or continue driving it and assume the risk. Don't be beating yourself up to the point that you can't sleep at night.

Don, you're right. But I do choose when & where the car is driven darned carefully. Wal Mart shopping in the car is NOT on it's to do list. That's why there are Dee-troit iron. :)