Why should a repaint decrease a car's value?

[autobonrun]

Everything I read and hear says a repaint decreases a car's value. I can't believe that the factory system in say 1980 is that much superior to the technology available today at reputable shops. I can see where original paint in excellent condition would increase a car's value but not why a well painted car to remove scratches, fading, and door dings should reduce the value.

If someone thinks you are trying to hide something, before and after pictures should handle that issue.

Can someone explain what the factory paint process was and why it is still superior to repainting?

Would a Porsche developed/endorsed standard for painting help maintain the value?

[mwbaum]

A really top notch documented paint job with before and after photos should increase the value of a car that really needed it imo, but not necessarily up to the cost of the job. Also most paint jobs are mediocre and not documented...and the risk of poor bodywork/rust/hidden damage remains...which is why a pristine original paint car will always be worth more than a repainted car. No hidden monsters.....

[Jim T]

You can have all the pics in the world, etc.

but a paint job will always raise questions as to what was underneath.

With decent care, the factory paint on even a 1980 should still look pretty good. With factory paint, any body, crash damage, etc. issues simply become a non-issue. What you see is what you get, end of story.

Plus, I don't think ALL paint jobs always decrease the value. Just probably 99% of the time. If you spend $15,000 on a "remove all parts and repaint" job on a '78 SC, it will increase the value of the car over mediocre original paint. But, most paint jobs are $2500 or less jobs that are (1) done because of some damage, and (2) are inferior to the factory paint. Thus the general rule holds true.

[Jack Olsen]

There are two categories of Porsche buyers.

One values originality, sometimes over anything else. Carrera chain tensioners are always a good idea, right? Well, there are some buyers who would look on that as a compromise, not an upgrade. And there's something to be said for this position -- if you obsessively insist on previous owners not doing anything to a car, you can at least be certain that nothing's been screwed up as the consequence of sub-par craftsmanship or laziness.

But most Porsche buyers are guys who have saved up a little money and have always fantasized about having a cool sports car. They're impulse buyers, usually. (It's on the second P-car purchase that they actually do their homework and get the PPI.) These buyers are going to see fresh paint as a plus. It makes the car look less "used." They'll buy primarily based on appearance. A bone-stock 30-year-old 911 with 30-year-old paint is not going to appeal to these guys, no matter how well taken care of it's been.

I think most Pelican owners would fall closer to the first group than the second.

But to your specific point, the quality of a paint job is something that's very hard to verify. The factory's paint quality, while it might not be the absolute best, is still reliably good. Any seller can claim he broke out for a $10,000 high-quality job. Reciepts and photos might help, but you'd be amazed at how far some people will go to perpetrate a fraud.

My .02+ cents.

[autobonrun]

Jack, I think your comment about the quality of the job being hard to verify goes to the heart of why a repaint job reduces the value; more so than the fact that the factory job was that much better.

Here's my thought on that issue: What if Porsche offered a certification program to businesses that:

1) Had their employees trained by Porsche factory painters
2) Followed painting procedures approved by Porsche
3) Used painting equipment approved by Porsche
4) Completely documented the entire job including repairs made, rust found, before and after pictures, etc. Documentation requirements would be determined by Porsche
5) Issued a certificate to the owner upon completion of the work stating the work was done to Porsche factory standards


Porsche could charge for the certification and training (similar to ISO certified businesses). The businesses could charge more for the work due to the elimination in uncertainty and hopefully the fact that the certified work is considered more valuable in the resale of cars.

I don't know how much this would add to the price of a job but for shops with everything in place but the trained employee, it may not be much. I'm sure there are just as many negatives as positives but I think the current market could support a few of these shops in each major city, especially with the number of older Porsches being kept on the road.

Easy for me to say, I don't own a paint shop.

[pwd72s]

" Why should a repaint decrease a car's value? " Because Bruce Anderson says it will! That should end this discussion, right? (Tongue firmly in cheek) Honestly, I'm not sure...but today I'm glad I never let those little flaws bug me enough to spend the $ on a respray....

[cary]

This conversation has always made me laugh.

In my youth, me driving my VW. I'd always stop at the Porsche*Audi dealer when the transport was there unloading "new" Porsches. This was the days before the dockside service center. ( can't remember the correct name ) They'd unload the cars off the carrier and inspect them. About every 3rd. car went the body shop for corrections and improvements. Not dents.
Just flaw and scratch stuff. So those that think they have a virgin paint job. Who knows ?????

Just thought I'd put in my 02c.

[Oldporsche]

If I could find a "stable" painter that's reliable, honest and doesn't think he could make a million on each paint job, I could probably keep him in business for the rest of his life.

Yes, even original porsche paint jobs from the dealers are "touched up." I've seen it done.

One of our PCA members owns the best body shop in town. He tells me he can make more money doing insureance work on Toyotas! I have seen him turn out concours stuff and some things are so bad you can see the problems across the street! Most good painters are artists. It all has to do with how the painter feels about himself the day he's shooting the stuff. (what stuff?)

A lot of the cars we like have been "touched up" in areas you wouldn't believe. My hometown is home to 3 highline dealers that advertise in Autoweek. I know personally that some of these late model wheels that are on porsches advertised in Autoweek have been filled with bondo and painted.

Theres so much painted on a Porsche that a repaint in a different color is a real nightmare. I am driving a very poorly repainted one right now. When I was negotiating the price I promptly knocked off a couple of thousand for the paint job. Its really only good for scuffing up and repainting.

I guess its just the nature of the process, the people concerned with the actual work, and the way its presented that have to do with the value of the repaint job.

Good luck,
David Duffield

[epbrown]

Ah, a subject much in my thoughts lately, since the Rolls is going in for new paint - Polar Silver Metallic, baby! - at the beginning of the March (when the SC comes out of storage).

In addition to Jack's comments, if you read the collector car mags, lately everyone's big on patina. They want the car to be completely original, and yet look unused. If the buyer sees himself as a collector (which I've been accused of, but don't see it - I've just got two old cars I drive all the time), then he's going to hate having the car repainted.

If the person's a driver and Porsche enthusiast, I don't think he'll care if the car has been repainted or modded, as long as he and the previous owner have similar philosophical leanings, like concourse nut, DE fan, and so on.

Emanuel

[bonedaddy]

I have to think that the durability of the new color base/catalyzed clear coat systems is far superior to what was available 20 years ago. The quality of the final product on the car though, is entirely dependent upon meticulous preparation and skill of application.

Repainting with a different color requires removal of an awful lot of seals, panels, and hardware to make it look right--masking just doesn't cut it in most cases. This requires a lot of time and/or money. The new paints are expensive, but nothing compared to the prep time involved.

[JuiceMan]

Well when I bought my 912 it had a terrible repaint on it. The repaint was so bad that it was pealing off in large pieces on the fenders.

It was guards red and had a little rust on the doors when i bought it. Other than that it was pretty much good to go body wise. I had the car stripped down to bare metal and removed everything from the doors to windows to rollcage and engine sheetmetal. I had everything repainted Polar Silver Mettalic for less than $3,000 the reason why it was so cheap however is because it took the person who painted it 11 months! Because he was just doing it in his spare time. I'm not complaining however because I saved myself about $2,000 by having him do it rather than a bodyshop who also wouldn't have taken their time and mad it look as best as possible.

[Don Wohlfarth]

old porsche hit the nail on the head. Body shops can make more money painting Toyota's, Honda's, Ford's, than on Porsche. Get em in, get em out.
Insurance companies add to the confusion. They discount a shop's labor rate so they can "refer" customer's to the shop. Try and get your car repaired at a shop that is not on the approved list is a king size hassle and you will have to pay the difference in labor rate. One way to fight that is mention to the insurance company "diminished value" and the fight becomes a "little" easier.
The body shops can't take the time to do the job properly. Porsche were pretty much hand built and it can take a true professional to reassemble them properly. The normal customer doesn't care that there's a 1/16 cap on one side of the hood or door and 3/8's on the other side.
Shop's don't use a painter to prep the car, they use a "hey boy" as people won't pay for the job to be done properly. Ever wonder why it takes 10 days to get a repair done when there's only 10 manhours of labor on the job?

[Z-man]

The only way a repaint will not decrease the value of the car is if it is done the SAME way it was originally painted (or close to it!)

That means the car would have to be stripped down to the bare metal: all trim, interior, dash, glass, engine...etc. removed, and put on a rotating thinginy. Door skins should be removed.
Yeah, it can be done, but it costs an arm and a leg. Not to mention the old paint would have to be stripped off as well. All this can end up costing more than the value of the car itself, and the price will almost never be covered in resale value, unless the car is a collector, like a 904 or Speedster.

How can anyone expect a typical repaint to be the same quality as an original paint job? Without removing everything from the body, there will always be over-spray, missed spots, uneven application...etc. That's why a repaint lowers the car's value.

Just my humble opinion.
-Zoltan.

[curtisaa]

Again, Paul is right on the mark. BA and his draconian opinion may have jaded many a Pelicanhead. FIND ME one car at Pebble Beach ( CDE ) that has won this very prestigious award that has it's "owiginal" paint job. Find me ONE "hotrod" or nastalga car which, BTW, are as a group, have more $$ invested that has NOT been repainted.
MY .02 is that when it becomes yours, "do what's right for you, and not what BA perceives to be right for him"..

[ChrisBennet]

While we're on the subject... If the paint at the factory was applied over a galvanized body part, wouldn't a "down to metal" repaint remove that galvanized layer?
-Chris

[John Brandt]

This whole thing reminds me of the BS on antiques roadshow where one piece of 18th century furniture is refinished and looks gorgeous but it's only worth $300 while the exact same piece that looks like its been sitting outside since the French Revolution is worth a million

Ferrari guys let their cars sit because they've allowed this mindset to creep in. I think its bullpuckey

[911pcars]

Correct me if I missed something here.

Are we talking about a higher value placed on original factory paint in good condition versus the same car repainted? Of course, duh.

However, IMHO, a car that has been repainted (assuming a good job) is going to be worth more than the same car with a weathered, peeling original finish. Which one would you pay more for? I didn't hear anyone say that.

If you answered, "car with original bad paint", then you are more of an "enthusiast" then I.

Sherwood Lee
'69 (repainted)
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcar

[Matt Smith]

I have painted classic cars professionally for a few years while on a working holiday in London. Plus lots of my own cars beforehand.
We did some pretty cool stuff: Aston DB6's, 356, E Types, Austin Healeys, MG T's etc. I loved doing this work, and loved doing it right.
You do need to strip them colmpletely in my opinion. I have never painted a car that wasn't bare metalled, even when the customer insisted we do a "quick blow over" (no such thing, ever!).

My point is that while these cars look awesome, they seem to loose a bit of their magic, especially if they had a couple of scars on them. The scars told a story, and with these sorts of sports cars the story inevitably was an interesting one.

Maybe a bit of it was I now knew who had painted the car: me. Nothing magical about that (unless I have been deluding myself).

Now I really treasure original paint. Problem is, not many people do. In fact I have yet to meet anyone who appreciates the cool swagger of my sun baked suede silver 911 quite as I do. I get nagged to repaint it (which I could easily do, and probably will) all the time. But there's just something about climbing into a car that you know has lived mysteriously somewhere else. How did that scratch get there? Why is there a little scrape on the fender? I dunno. That's half the fun to me I guess.

[CamB]

Matt

Nagnagnagnagnag. Repaint your damn car. I will help. I want to learn. Nagnagnagnag.

There is not enough nostalgia in your paint to hide what a true pimpin' ride it would be with new paint. Besides, it won't leak if you buy new seals.

Nagnagnagnag.

Hehehe

Cam

[Matt Smith]

How-oh-how did I know cam would be the very next poster?
The man has a reputation in this town of drizzling shiney black goop over anything capable of turning a wheel or propagating rust.