missing VIN from chassis

[Dan Morton]

Over 10 years ago I purchased my first 911 - a 1970 911T Targa. It was extremely clean and has allowed me to learn a lot about Pcars.

Now I've been busy with minor rust repairs in the nose and after scraping undercoating off of the area surrounding the smugglers box, I've noticed that the VIN which is supposed to be stamped into the chassis is missing. The metal has been cut out and replaced with a blank piece. Unfortunately I didn't know to look here to validate the VIN when I bought the car 10 years ago.

The strange thing is that the remaining two VIN plates (A pillar, front panel) are in place and are matching as is the engine number. I purchased the cardex years ago and everything on it matches the car exactly - color (originally silver which I can still see in several areas and the car is now black, radio, interior, model, etc.). The VIN matches the car as well - 1970 911 T Targa.

What I don't understand is why someone would remove the chassis VIN with no obvious benefit. The car has never been represented as a special model nor was it an expensive car when I bought it. It's definitely not a 912 or a pieced together wreck. The car is really clean and nothing else seems odd. I guess someone could have totaled the car with this VIN and found one just like it and then switched the numbers and engine but it hardly seems worth the effort.

I was able to get to the numbers stamped below the radio but I'm not sure how to tie this to the VIN - any ideas?

Also, I may pull the windshield and dash pad to see if there is a number written on the dash - anyone else find a number here?

I will try to reach out to the PO to see if there's a story behind this but I can't think of how removing this stamping would be of benefit unless someone was trying to pass this off as an S at some time.

Thoughts?
-Dan

[jkarolyi]

Perhaps the car was in an accident in the area of the VIN, and the replacement piece was from another car with a different VIN, so it was removed and welded over. It could have even been a minor accident...sliding sideways into a telephone pole right there for example.

[JJ 911SC]

Dan

If all other numbers match, its OK but not that you know, you probably wont rest until you find out why, just like I.va been trying to find out when mine was modified by one ogf the previous POs. I got all the license bureau registration dates from day 1 and I'm sure it was done in little Italy in Montreal but cant nailed even through the PCA chapter.

You mentioned that you bought the "cardex" years ago. How does one go about to get them?

JJ

[djpateman]

You can ask PCNA if the production number and the VIN match; they will only say yea or nay.
Given both, I may be able to shed some light on it.

[dad911]

Hate to say it, but vin tampering is never good, and possibly illegal. Best case it's a documented tub swap, worst case it's to register a car that had no papers/title.

If it was my car I'd want to know if the production number and VIN match.

[Dan Morton]

JJ, you can find the Cardex info here Certificate of Authenticity - Owner Services - Porsche Service - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

The VIN was 'surgically' removed and unfortunately doesn't look like it was a result of damage. I'll look again at the seams and welds to see if perhaps the entire front clip was replaced at one time.

I've contacted PCNA and hope to hear back from them tomorrow.

[Packy]

Post pictures of the welded piece.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by Dan Morton

JJ, you can find the Cardex info here Certificate of Authenticity - Owner Services - Porsche Service - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG...

Dan

Thanks. I do have a CoA. I was under the impression that a Cardex was like the build sheet.

JJ

[Dan Morton]

ah. I guess I only have a COA

[JohnJL]

Maybe your smugglers VIN was removed and donated to a 'hot' car?

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by dad911

Best case it's a documented tub swap.

Sorry to be an idiot, but is this even legal? I thought a tub swap (or moving all the good stuff from one tub to another empty tub), ended with a new tub with a new vin and new registration and the old tub (vin + reg) was documented as scraped...

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Kroggers

Sorry to be an idiot, but is this even legal? I thought a tub swap (or moving all the good stuff from one tub to another empty tub), ended with a new tub with a new vin and new registration and the old tub (vin + reg) was documented as scraped...

I didn't say legal.
lots of conjecture here w/o pics, and I am no expert......

Only time I have seen VIN removal/tamperring legal was when it was done by the government. My brother once bought a 928 that was a car previously seized by the state of NJ. NJ removed the VIN, and assigned it a new VIN# that did not correspond to any porsche #s.

[johnsjmc]

It,s likely legal if the person doing the repairs legally owned all the pieces. I have done a similar repair years ago to a vintage Mustang and an old 1964 Corvette.The Mustang was a convert and I used donor pieces from a scrap car to repair the front end. The Corvette crowd are so concerned about" numbers matching" .In the case of the vette I installed a rebuilt engine to replace the blown up original I had a block with the correct build date so I removed the vin number from my repl. block so it didn,t conflict with the vin on the rest of the car.. Likely your car has had a front clip welded on from another doner car either because of collision or rust damage. Prior to the galvanized bodies in 75/6 the early car front ends rusted easily. I scrapped a real 1967 S in 1974 because the front subframes were rusted out. Regret that to this day but the car was only worth about $2000 and parts were worth much more. As long as you aren,t dealing with an early S or MFI Carrera and aren,t trying to hide anything I wouldn,t lose much sleep over it. Today a carfax will find this easier than a vin check. Different states have different rules about clean titles. Your car is too old for a Carfax to find any accident records. And incidently I sold the Vette and about 3 owners and 10 yrs later I got a call from an owner researching his newly aquired "numbers matching" car. He had purchased from a well respected dealer with a so called documented appraisal. Someone had stamped the vin on the replacement engine. He didn,t want any more info when I told him he had been had.

[Kroggers]

Based on what you just said John, I could assume that it would be legal for me to purchase an empty 911 shell, remove everything from my current shell if it had bad accident damage and install into my new shell and then also move the vin numbers over.

I always thought this was very not legal at all - even if I legally owned both shells and had the vin documents.

[javadog]

It's not legal in the US. I don't know about Sweden....

JR

[Kroggers]

It is about as legal in Sweden as walking into a bank with a gun and shouting "give me all your cash" I believe!!!

From my understanding the vin always remains with the shell...

[johnsjmc]

My understanding is it is legal as long as you own all the parts.If I own 2 tubs and use 1/3 of one and 2/3 of the other shouldn,t it be titled with the 2/3 number? If you are talking about disclosure laws on resale then it,s still legal to repair a car using used parts. Knowledge of accident history should be disclosed. I also owned a 1986 911 years ago(1988-96). When I bought it, it was a theft recovery and the windshield vin tag was missing. It had been title washed by moving through several jurisdictions, but was pretty obvious since it was a 2 yr old cab with 20000 mi for $20k Porsche replaced the missing vin tag through the parts dept. An inspection at the dealer was required to verify all the other numbers were present, The vin is at several places on the tub and some more which might only be visable with some disassembly. Then $25 and about 6 weeks and a new metal tag arrived. I installed it and sold the car a few years later. Even though the title didn,t show a theft recovery I disclosed the flaw. Same with the changed engine in the 1964 Vette. Some resellers are more upfront than others. Some will disclose when asked ,some don,t want to know so they don,t need to disclose. I am a licensed mechanic in Canada and can legally repair cars for compensation and these were private cars.I am not a dealer and am not required to disclose but I usually do.

[javadog]

Krogger's hypothetical question involved the transfer of components from one tub to another, including the VIN. Not legal... In his case, transferring the components is fine and the correct thing to do is keep the VIN of the second tub.

My suggestion would be to check with the specific state that the vehicle woud be registered in. Most states, and the feds, have laws against VIN tampering. That said, there are exceptions, such as destroying a VIN, if you happen to be in the metal recycling business and are crushing a car. There are also often specific procedures to follow in the case of a major repair. In some cases, you may be assigned a new VIN number.

Ask first.... but keep one thing in mind. Is there a legitimate reason to alter the VIN? Lots of them get altered for less-than-stellar reasons.

JR

[Matt Monson]

Several years ago I sold a 1972 914-4 front clip to repair a very well known racecar that had been in a major front end collision. The front clip was sold without any title and was sold as a part. When it was installed on the other 914, obviously they are going to want to maintain the provenance and history of the racecar. The door pillar kept the original vin, and the vin plate was moved over to the new clip. As for the stamped in vin on the front cut? I don't know what they did with it and whether or not they cut out and installed the original stamped vin, scratched it out, or just left it and the car now has a non-matching vin stamped into it's front end. I've never looked at it that closely in person. However, regardless of what they did with the vin stamped into the front cut, the car is still under the original vin.

No, I won't tell you what car this is. But I'd bet $100 that 95% people who would ever look at this car on display at a track event would never know it's been clipped. Good work is that good.

If the 911 in question was repaired in the same way, you might not be able to figure it out unless someone documented the work.

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by javadog

Krogger's hypothetical question involved the transfer of components from one tub to another, including the VIN. Not legal... In his case, transferring the components is fine and the correct thing to do is keep the VIN of the second tub.

That is what I was talking about, and you just put it in better words

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Several years ago I sold a 1972 914-4 front clip to repair a very well known racecar that had been in a major front end collision. The front clip was sold without any title and was sold as a part. When it was installed on the other 914, obviously they are going to want to maintain the provenance and history of the racecar. The door pillar kept the original vin, and the vin plate was moved over to the new clip. As for the stamped in vin on the front cut? I don't know what they did with it and whether or not they cut out and installed the original stamped vin, scratched it out, or just left it and the car now has a non-matching vin stamped into it's front end. I've never looked at it that closely in person. However, regardless of what they did with the vin stamped into the front cut, the car is still under the original vin.

No, I won't tell you what car this is. But I'd bet $100 that 95% people who would ever look at this car on display at a track event would never know it's been clipped. Good work is that good.

If the 911 in question was repaired in the same way, you might not be able to figure it out unless someone documented the work.

I think this is what they would referee to as a cut-and-shut in the UK, and that is also not legal as it is seen to be a car made from two cars. I believe this is also not legal in Scandinavia...