Stuck in Portugal - stuck engine, or just a bad starter?

[petr7]

dear forum users, new, big problems emerged in our car... just when we thought that everything is fixed... we had dirty injectors. Now, our problem is different, so I started a new topic. All info about our previous problem can be found at http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/581155-clogged-fuel-injection-diesel.html

What we need help with the most:
When the engine is bad due to oil pump failure, is it still possible to crank the engine with the starter? What does it mean, when I turn the key and only hear one clicking sound, and nothing moves? Is it the starter? Can I change it? or, can it be a stuck engine?

Quick summary|:
- we have ford transit 1991 van, 2,5 diesel. Sorry for non-porsche car, the reason is explained in the previous topic
- first, dirty injectors. The car was shaking in idle. We run our diesel engine on used veggie oil
- we added some diesel, ATF and injector cleaner, re-fitted the fuel filter, and the problem completely disappeared.
- we always had problems starting when the engine was cold - ever since we started using veggie oil. When the engine was warm, there was no problem, the engine started right up (even though, sometimes it felt like the engine had hard time moving, for second, it really hesitated to move, but then it moved OK... but it could have been just a starter problem...). So, for cold starts, we parked on a hill and push-started it in the morning. \When the engine was warm, we easily started with the starter.
- motor oil: I checked the level regularly, it was always within limits. Even 100 miles before the oil change. But at the oil change, there was only 2 quarts of oil instead of 5! 3 quarts of oil mysteriously disappeared within 100 miles. I have measured the oil level correctly. After the oil change, we have driven about 70 miles in hard terrain, no oil disappeared.
- lately, after starts, the oil pressure warning light stays on for about a minute. Sometimes it is so, sometimes it is not, it goes off right away. Other than that, the engine run fine, very fine.

And now, we have a
BIG PROBLEM

It is 10 minutes to the New Year here, but I dont feel like celebrating!
Today, the tank finally got empty and we filled up diesel. Good. Everything with the injectors seemed to be solved and fixed. We were so happy the car was OK.

We drove half a kilometer to the town square, did some shopping for baby formula... we came back to the car, started it up easily... the oil light did not go out again... and after only about 15 seconds of the car running, the engine shut off itself. The whole time, the engine sounded good, like any other time, no weird sounds coming out of it, as much as my untrained but attentive ear can tell.

We waited for almost an hour (doing other things) and started the car again. It started easily. Again, no unusual sounds, normal, good engine sound. The oil light is on. And after some 10-15 seconds, the engine dies again.

When I try to start it now, it does not. We only hear one click, and nothing is turning. The oil light is on and the battery light is almost off, perhaps due to high current drawn.

We are plugged to a battery charger, so the battery is not dead.

I am scared, our future looks uncertain.

I have two theories:

1) The oil pump is faulty, or the the oil pickup screen is dirty. That caused that no oil was lubricating the engine... and the engine got stuck. The engine cannot move at all and therefore nothing spins when I try to start the car. Some major engine job is needed. What exactly is needed to be done?

This theory is contradicted by the fact that the engine was run only for seconds, in idle, and no unusual sounds were heard from the engine.

2) The engine stopped because we filled up on fuel too late - there was a moment when there was no fuel in the tank and air got sucked in. After we refueled, we could drive away, but there was an air pocket in the system which caused the engine to die, some cranking of the engine would suck in more fuel and the engine would run again.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME

The starter just went bad at the same time!

this second theory sounds more optimistic, we just need a new starter. But it looks like too big a coincidence: air pocket in the fuel system AND starter failure.


What can I do now? Advice needed... What can I do to tell what is wrong? When the engine is bad due to oil pump failure, is it still possible to crank the engine with the starter? I guess if I could push the car and push-start it, that would tell me that the engine is OK and I have a bad starter... but I cannot push it here, not easily anyway. I would need to find someone with a rope and willingness to pull me behind his car.

The place where we are at is a tiny town with narrow streets... with loads of luck, I will find some repairman... with no knowledge of English... not tomorrow (holiday), not after tomorrow (Sunday), but hopefuly the next day...

Petr

[ipacketeer]

Hi Petr,
Sorry to hear that you are stuck in such a difficult location. I can not say anything about the problem with the oil pump, however can comment on the starter portion of the issue you are experiencing with your van.
When you turn the ignition key on, the click you are hearing is the starter relay which is, on most Ford products mounted on the firewall, providing that the battery is strong enough to spind the starter, if nothing else happens, that sounds like your starter mounted solenoid or the starter motor needs attention. Good luck

[petr7]

I have just tried to bypass the solenoid with a screwdriver - to connecct directly the battery and the starter.
- nothing moves
- high current is drawn
- one clicking sound from the starter engine

What I need to know is:
- is it the starter engine that is bad?
- is it the car engine that is stuck so much that it cannot move at all? Does that happen?

To replace the starter will not be easy in this situation (language barrier, not the right tools, spare shop far away, kids), but it is doable. It would help us to know that starter is the problem, not the engine...

I tried to move the engine manually... but dont know how. I am not strong enough to move the belt, and the fan is not engaged. Any tips?

Thank You
Petr

[911Jarle]

Originally Posted by petr7

I have just tried to bypass the solenoid with a screwdriver - to connecct directly the battery and the starter.
- nothing moves
- high current is drawn
- one clicking sound from the starter engine

What I need to know is:
- is it the starter engine that is bad?
- is it the car engine that is stuck so much that it cannot move at all? Does that happen?

To replace the starter will not be easy in this situation (language barrier, not the right tools, spare shop far away, kids), but it is doable. It would help us to know that starter is the problem, not the engine...

I tried to move the engine manually... but dont know how. I am not strong enough to move the belt, and the fan is not engaged. Any tips?

Thank You
Petr

Put the car in gear 2nd or 3rd. If the car is unmovable, the engine is probably stuck. If you can move it more than 20-30cm my guess is that it is your starter.

Cheers, Jarle

[LakeCleElum]

Will the engine spin without the starter. Can you put it in gear (if stickshift), rock it back and forth and see engine rotate? If automatic, try to turn the engine by turning the bolt on the pulley end of the crankshaft. If not getting oil, you are doing a lot of harm by trying to run the engine again......

[faverymi]

Hopefully the oil pump is not broken. If actually broke, Im thinking no pressure to the crank and cooked bearings and journals. Not a good scenario.

Try to make it turn pushing downhill in 3rd or 4th gear to know that turns, If you have access to tools, pry-bar with socket in the front pulley.

Other possibility, I had an engine stuck once because the gear in the starter broke and locked the flywheel. Weird stuff happens.

Hang in there!!!

[GaryR]

Not to be insensitive but why does this gentleman feel this is the appropriate place to ask for help (now with two separate threads) with his euro Ford diesel van?? There are 100 Diesel sites out there, this is a Porsche 911 (air-cooled) Technical Forum, no?

[Joe Bob]

Because we respond with answers?

[petr7]

Yes, you guys respond with answers, and very helpful ones. Now I am also in Ford transit forum - it gives valuable answers too, but I would not know nearly as much without you!!

Today, i got a towing rope and did The Test. First, we tried to push the car while it was in the 3rd gear. We only managed to rock it, but it did not move.

Then, I got a thick strap, it said on it that it was intended for towing cars. I found someone to pull me. When we were going fast enough, I slowly put in the 3rd gear. That almost stopped the front car, and the strap broke with a loud sound. It looked like there was a huge resistance. And I think that the engine did not move at all. I was seeing the future in black colours.

Then the road was down steep hill, so we used the gravity to pull us. I let the van go quite fast and then I tried again to put in the 3rd gear. The engine spinned, but when I stepped on the clutch, it died.
Then, I tried again and the engine actually kept running for about ten secs!! And, then died. I tried the starter, and it worked! So, the starter is not gone. The battery was weak after all the attempts to start it in the morning, so the engine was not spinning fast and it did not start the car, but – it did spin.

I made about five more attempts to start the car. Every time, it was the same. It started, it was running for 1 to 10 seconds, and it died.
Every time, the engine was running smoothly, without any shaking or weird sounds. If it did not die, i would think that there is nothing wrong with it. The oil and battery lights were on, but it could have been because the engine was just idling, and it died so soon.

Then, I stopped trying – I wanted to get some input from you guys so that I would not damage the engine.

SO:
- the starter is not dead... and the reason it did not spin before was that the engine was quite stuck? I am still not sure whether the engine really was stuck, or whether I just suggested it onto myself... perhaps the strap was not a good quality one.

- the reason the engine stopped every time could have been that either there was still air pocket in the fuel system, or the engine is not lubricated, or it is partly stuck. Right? Which one is likely?

What i need to know:
- is it safe to keep trying to start the engine (just in case it is the air bubble that causes the engine to stop)? For how long? Under which conditions? Would it help if I waited between the tries? I will clean the fuel filter again, empty tank could let some water in... but I definitely do not want to ruin the engine!
- could the injector cleaner release some dirt INTO the engine, so the engine would get stuck? With the diesel, I put quite a bit of injector cleaner into it – perhaps even too much... actually, now that I think about it, I could have exceeded the recommended dilution four times! Could that do some damage? It was the ordinary cleaner, probably detergents. I did order diesel, but I am also thinking whether the lady at the pump did not put gasoline into it accidentaly. Would that produce such symptoms? If I open the fuel filter, how can I tell gasoline from diesel? I dont trust my nose much.
- if it IS the oil pump not working: is the engine severely damaged already, or would it just help to change the pump? As I said, when I push started it, it was running smoothly, but died in seconds.
- if the engine is partly stuck due to some dirt in it: what to do?

I am surely hoping that it is just the air bubble, or oil pump. The outlook of stuck engine sounds like a horrid nightmare to me. If that is what it is though: what exactly will needed to be done on the engine? Or, would I need a new/refurbished/junkyard engine? How much would it all cost roughly? I have no idea...


thanks... Petr

[Drisump]

Petr, I don't know where to go from here, the mystery of the disappearing oil is large enough all by itself. Have you checked your coolant...I suppose it may be possible that you have leaked the oil into the coolant system. And this would likely be caused by a blown head gasket. I didn't ask this before , but is this engine turbo-charged? The oil light staying on means that either the engine is not achieving the minimum oil pressure to run, or the sensor or the wire to the sensor is damaged. It's possible that your engine has a low pressure cut out, which may explain why it won't continue running. Diesels operate at a very high compression ratio (probably 20:1 or so)so bump starting them or turning them over by hand can be a bit of a chore. You may want to look in the general areas that the mechanic was working in, perhaps a wire has been knocked loose. This would not explain your starting problems but possibly your continuous running problem. The starter can be still at fault despite working fine once or twice, starters at the end of their lives, develop dead spots on their armatures... sometimes striking the starter with a hammer while trying to turn it over will get them going. I would check my battery connections and all grounds....by checking, I mean disconnecting them,cleaning them well before reconnecting. If the engine was bound up .....it is toast, but given your description of how it sounds when it runs, I don't think so. Good luck and Happy New year

[petr7]

Thank You, Drisump. The oil is not disappearing any more / dipstick says max level. Coolant is there, normal level... ok, I will open it and check whether there is oil in it. but after the disappearing oil, we had an oil change and driven for 100 miles /. the engine was at full power, smooth...
No turbo.
the low pressure cutout is perhaps not it, since sometimes it ran for a minute with the light (and then the light disappeared) [unless it can somehow sense the pressure via different sensor, not the one connected to the warning light].
The pattern of the light on ONLY after start, and disappearing after a minute or so, makes me think that it is not a loose wire.

I will deal with the starter issue later... now I can try to put clean fuel into the fuel filter in case the low fuel in tank caused water/air to be sucked in [someone even told me that the excess injector cleaner could destroy the oil film in the engine and cause loss of lubrication...]... and try to start the engine {by going down the hill]. I just need to know whether that is safe to do... How can I tell if the engine is lubricated? When the lid where the oil is poured in from a bottle came open before, there was a thick mist coming our of the engine. If the mist will still be there, would it mean the the engine is lubricated? And the pump is OK?

[Drisump]

Engines don't run that way....going through three litres in 100 miles and then not.... I am simply trying to find a explainable, simple explanation with respect to your pressure light being on. Without a pressure gauge, the light is your only instrument that tells you of the health of your internal lubrication system. In other words, if you find the solution to the light you could perhaps not worry about a catastrophic failure and concentrate on the running issue . If you can find a wrench that will remove your oil plug, you could probably tell by what comes out whether engine internals have been damaged. Low fuel in tank....? I don't want to be a nag, but why isn't it FILLED with diesel by now? Some "misting" when an oil filler cap is removed, is normal but lots is not a good sign, the engine may be exhibiting signs of excessive "blow by" which indicate problems.(ie. rings) I hesitate giving advice to start going down a hill, since you seem to be saying the starter does start the truck now...only it doesn't remain running, so I'm not sure what you're going to achieve, except ending up at the bottom of a hill. Cheers

[petr7]

Low fuel in tank: I was trying to use the oil so I can fill it up with diesel. Then, I only put 8 quarts of diesel in it so the cleaner would be well concentrated - except that I perhaps put too much of the cleaner in it. Now I am just walking to the gas station to get a few extra quarts of diesel - to have some clean diesel to put into the fuel filter and eliminate possible problems from too much cleaner in it, water or dirt from the fuel tank... I will empty the fuel filter and fill it with diesel. Then, I will try to start with the starter... only if it will not crank, I want to try going down hill...

yes, the cover that covers the hole where the mnotor oil is poured in just slides in - and as I was driving after the oil change, it came out a few times on its own, and so much mist came out of there while driving , that we knew immediately that it came off...

GOing down hill: the battery is also weak, and if there is water in the fuel, perhaps it will need to go perhaps 300 yards to get rid of it?

We will see. Thank You. Petr

[petr7]

So, I filled the fuel filter with diesel... and tried to start it. The engine turned, but only very slowly, not enough to start the car. And now I must explain:
- as we used to put veg oil as fuel, we always had problems starting when the engine was cold. So later, we resigned on trying to start it and always slept on the top of a hill... and push started the van in the morning. Once the engine was running, even for a little bit, it is very easy to start it with the starter.
So, I dont really know whether it did not want to start due to thick fuel-veg oil, weak battery, or old starter. But since this problem was happening only with the first morning start, I would think the veg oil was the culprit. It is also possible that the usage of oil formed some deposits in the cylinders, and when the engine is cold, the cylinders are a bit narrower and so that is why it is hard to start?

Anyway, the engine moved only slowly now. There is only diesel in the engine now, so the thick veggie oil should not cause it now. The battery has been plugged into the charger for quite some time, and even before that, it had 12,70 V, ...

We will have to push start the car... and we will probably leave it for the morning.

[petr7]

So, lots of things happened today.

Two englishmen found us here... and one is quite experienced mechanic, and has the same car as me.

But, it is still a big mystery what is with the engine.

First we tried to start via starter. With jumper cables. The same low spinning - with or without the cables.

Then, down the hill. The van started, I could even accelerate. Then, the asphalt ended, I was putting in lower gear - and that is when engine died. Peacefuly. Roger said that when it was running, it was running smooth, fine, just like it should.

We tried the starter - just the click again, like 2 days ago. We push down that hill again - even in high speed, I put it in the gear and THE ENGINE WAS COMPLETELY STUCK. We even pushed back and put reverse, and tried to spin the engine with a socket key, pushed up with a jack - but iut was just lifting the engine block, no spin.

He said, that must be the starter stuck there. We took the starter out, but no, the starter was fine.

we also took off the top engine lid - everything under there was fine and as it should be - except for some sludge on the top cover, which he said is from blow-by. Not good, but that would not cause this.

So, we really dont know what is the culprit. What would make the engine so stuck, after such a smooth run.

I will appreciate any ideas and suggestions... what can cause it, and what to do about it.

Tomorrow, we will probably take the car to a mechanic... perhaps he can take off the oil pan and see more from there... what else to check for?

So, the nightmare is deepening :-)

best wishes to you all
Petr

[Drisump]

Petr, I was away skiing with my daughter for a couple of days and haven't been on the net. I think a mechanic is the only way to go at this point. If the engine is seized, it probably means a used replacement is the cheapest way to get back on the road....not cheap, cheapest...but dropping the pan will determine much more. I'm sorry things have gone sour for you on your trip...we tried. Keep your chin up

[petr7]

dear Drisump and others.

After some detective work on Czech Ford forum and after two mechanics have seen the car (taking only the top lid out and the starter, but they look experienced), the conclusion is:
the connecting rod is frozen on the crankshaft. So, they said that the cheapest is to replace the engine. The only problem is, the engines are very expensive here in PT, three times as much as in other european countries. But, it is impossible to sell the car here, so we will have to find some way how to get some cheaper engine or something...
thanks for help
petr

[petr7]

Hello everybody!

So, the problem is finally solved...

The big ends bearings were stuck. I have opened the oil sump lid, took the bearings apart, bought new ones, sanded down the composite from the crankshaft, put new ones in - and the car runs. We are on the way home to Czech republic, already made 1200 miles after the repair....

Best wishes to everybody, and thanks for all the help!

PS: I will be going to the States soon... in which part of US are cars the cheapest? I know it might be hard to tell, but still, if there is any difference in prices between different areas, that would be helpful. Or, does somebody some ultra cheap car/van for sale (economical and reliable, but of course, this is just a wish...)?

cheers,
Petr

[Drisump]

Good to hear Petr, I can't offer any input as far as "cheap cars"......not being in the states and all. Cheap is usually relative, ie. you get (hopefully) what you pay for. Good luck on your new adventure.