10% and 15% Alchohol in our gasoline

[sailchef]

Originally Posted by Noah930

How am I supposed to keep the sloshing to a minimum in a 911?

That's too funny.

1.5 ounces of Marine Stabil every tankfull. Can't say if it works.

[Duke]

Originally Posted by KNS

With your test kit do you find the amount of Ethanol to be a consistent 10%? Higher or lower?

I have tested it at several different Chevron stations, (91 octane supreme) & the results have all been the same---less than 10% ethanol, usually around 7%.

[cole930]

AHHHHH !!!!! California the land of the bankrupt and the Greene's.

Cole

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by Sporttracguy

stabil ethanol treatment

Sta-bil has a new ethanol treatment but Im not sure how well it works. It says that it prevents corrosion

Sporttracguy

Even this 'new' Sta-Bil Ethanol treatment works only to minimize water-induced corrosion, not the ill effects that ethanol itself has on aluminum, seals, etc.

[MichiganMike]

Originally Posted by Duke

I have tested it at several different Chevron stations, (91 octane supreme) & the results have all been the same---less than 10% ethanol, usually around 7%.

Do you run a standard on your instrument before running your sample? What instrument do you use again?

Race gas (ie Sunoco at Thunderhill or Infineon) is at ~10.0% Ethanol in the state of CA. Its only ethanol-free if you purchase it in 55 gall drum or small gallons from a supplier for offroad purposes only, such as for dirtbikes, ATVs, etc. Even then you need to sign your name for it along with proper paperwork!

CA has only had 10% ethanol since Jan 2010. It was at 5.7% for many years before that.

The current CA State policy:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/082908CaRFG_regs.doc

Look up section 2262.6 if you are interested.

[GothingNC]

Now we may have E20

E20 is just fine for fuel pumps, says Minnesota Ag Department — Autoblog Green

The Center, which operates out of Minnesota State University, Mankato, just released a study that found an E20 blend "causes no significant change in performance of automotive fuel systems." This study, the fourth E20 project the Center has conducted, was all about the fuel pumps and sending units. Eight models of fuel pumps were run for 4,000 models on three different fuels (pure gasoline, E10 and E20).

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by GothingNC

Now we may have E20

E20 is just fine for fuel pumps, says Minnesota Ag Department — Autoblog Green

The Center, which operates out of Minnesota State University, Mankato, just released a study that found an E20 blend "causes no significant change in performance of automotive fuel systems." This study, the fourth E20 project the Center has conducted, was all about the fuel pumps and sending units. Eight models of fuel pumps were run for 4,000 models on three different fuels (pure gasoline, E10 and E20).

Another disingenuous report! Interesting how each of htese supporters do not look at the whole system but only cherry picked issues.

Note the highlighted text. Great, my fuel pump and level gauge will live! what about my loss in performance due to the lowered energy content of a gallon of fuel (i.e. worse gas mileage). The strain this fuel will put on my overburdened fuel mamangement system which will need to richen the mixture even more to operate at stiochiometric ratios. How will the resultant lean running impact my catalyst?

It is interesting to note what was omitted or overlooked in this research. They did not say E20 has no or postive impact to overall perfomance nor it's impact to anything OTHER than fuel pumps and level gauges. Why did they not factor in the loss in performace due to the changed A/F Ratio? How E20 afftect tailpipe emissions.

[Flieger]

"significant"

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Flieger

"significant"

The study found that the pumps showed significantly less wear when tested with E20 than with gasoline. The study concluded that overall, E20 did not have any greater negative effects than gasoline or E10 on the fuel pumps tested. It also showed there were no substantial differences in the performance of the sending units tested in the three different fuels.

Since the only issue I need to care about in my car is if the fuel gauge works and my fuel pump works ok, I can now rest easy knowing that E20 is superior to the other currently available fuels.

After all, why would I worry about trival things like fuel economy, deviation from Stiochiometric A/F ratios and other performance parameters.

FYI, I started a new thread on ths topic as it needs to be highlighted. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/599932-heck-e10-lets-go-e20.html

[brads911sc]

the question is not whether we can buy ethanol free fuel. there are almost none. the total list represents less than 1% of the gas stations in Houston alone. There are virtually no stations in the 5 largest Texas cities and we are the oil refinery capital of the world. That is because E10 is federally mandated. I suspect that if you test most of those stations on that list you will fine ethanol. despite the stickers on the pump. is marathon really manufacturing ethanol free fuel for your one small station? the marathon gas in houston absolutely has ethanol.. and its refined here. not likely your small station has a deal for ethanol free fuel. its much more likely the pump is labeled wrong. id love to see some test results.

the real question to be addressed is what we need to do to our cars to preserve them and allow them to run properly.
Jaime is already instructing those with MS EFI to alter the AFR and VE tables to accomodate. I think he multiplied his AFR tables by .94 and his VE tables by 1.06.
On MFI, CIS, Motronic systems it may be good to think through and test likely scenarios.
I think the old AFR targets of 14.7 go out the window and targets in the low 13's become likely. example, my car runs like crap at idle at wideband control of 14.7. I am running 12.8-13.2 and have a smooth idle. As soon as i go north of 13.5 i get severe lean symptoms. If we use our old AFR targets we will be extreme lean at higher RPM's. (I run Chevron 92)
I have a hotter cam so not ready to say its all fuel related... but the AFR/VE tables have to be impacted.


So rather than hand wringing... i would have the pros do some testing to see what optimal AFR/VE tables / values look like for Gas, vs E10, vs E15, vs E20, etc. We have a few years before the oil companies could even do E20... so no need to panic...

[Duke]

Originally Posted by MichiganMike

Do you run a standard on your instrument before running your sample? What instrument do you use again?

Race gas (ie Sunoco at Thunderhill or Infineon) is at ~10.0% Ethanol in the state of CA. Its only ethanol-free if you purchase it in 55 gall drum or small gallons from a supplier for offroad purposes only, such as for dirtbikes, ATVs, etc. Even then you need to sign your name for it along with proper paperwork!

CA has only had 10% ethanol since Jan 2010. It was at 5.7% for many years before that.

The current CA State policy:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/082908CaRFG_regs.doc

Look up section 2262.6 if you are interested.

Here is a link for the tester if you are interested--simple to use.Order page - Ethanol Alcohol Fuel Test Kit.

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

is marathon really manufacturing ethanol free fuel for your one small station? the marathon gas in houston absolutely has ethanol.. and its refined here. not likely your small station has a deal for ethanol free fuel. its much more likely the pump is labeled wrong.

The station where I took the picture is in Coral Springs, FL, located about 15 mi. from the Port Everglades/Ft. Lauderdale fuel distribution hub for Marathon Gas. We have the largest boating community in the United States, hence the market for ethanol-free gas:

Marathon Oil Company is marketing a 90 octane unleaded non-ethanol gasoline as a recreational fuel for boats. This fuel is perfectly suited for use with 87 octane auto fuel STC's. In some locations it is one octane point higher, 91 octane. 91 octane is suitable for use with all auto fuel STC's.

Marathon ethanol free 90 or 91 octane may be available at the following bulk product terminals:

* Ft Lauderdale-Eisenhower
* Ft Lauderdale-Spangler
* River Rouge, MI
* Detroit, MI
* Romulus, MI
* Doraville, GA
* Powder Springs, GA

Pilots living near those areas of FL, MI or GA should contact the terminals to find out where this "Recreational Fuel" is being distributed since not all Marathon stations are carrying it.

[brads911sc]

So your not using Auto fuel.

This is like Race Gas. Speciality product.

Doesnt really help 99% of us... altho its a great find.

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

The station where I took the picture is in Coral Springs, FL, located about 15 mi. from the Port Everglades/Ft. Lauderdale fuel distribution hub for Marathon Gas:

Marathon Oil Company is marketing a 90 octane unleaded non-ethanol gasoline as a recreational fuel for boats. This fuel is perfectly suited for use with 87 octane auto fuel STC's. In some locations it is one octane point higher, 91 octane. 91 octane is suitable for use with all auto fuel STC's.

Marathon ethanol free 90 or 91 octane may be available at the following bulk product terminals:

* Ft Lauderdale-Eisenhower
* Ft Lauderdale-Spangler
* River Rouge, MI
* Detroit, MI
* Romulus, MI
* Doraville, GA
* Powder Springs, GA

Pilots living near those areas of FL, MI or GA should contact the terminals to find out where this "Recreational Fuel" is being distributed since not all Marathon stations are carrying it.

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

So your not using Auto fuel.

This is like Race Gas. Speciality product.

Doesnt really help 99% of us...

Oh well...move.

[brads911sc]

is there any downside to using "recreational fuel".

Should we all be looking for it? Im on the gulf coast.. I could look to see who is selling similar gas here...

Is this like the Heating Oil vs Diesel debate? Up north we had Hess stations that sold both. Of course the Heating oil was 50% less and many stated it was the same stuff...

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

The station where I took the picture is in Coral Springs, FL, located about 15 mi. from the Port Everglades/Ft. Lauderdale fuel distribution hub for Marathon Gas. We have the largest boating community in the United States, hence the market for ethanol-free gas:

Marathon Oil Company is marketing a 90 octane unleaded non-ethanol gasoline as a recreational fuel for boats. This fuel is perfectly suited for use with 87 octane auto fuel STC's. In some locations it is one octane point higher, 91 octane. 91 octane is suitable for use with all auto fuel STC's.

Marathon ethanol free 90 or 91 octane may be available at the following bulk product terminals:

* Ft Lauderdale-Eisenhower
* Ft Lauderdale-Spangler
* River Rouge, MI
* Detroit, MI
* Romulus, MI
* Doraville, GA
* Powder Springs, GA

Pilots living near those areas of FL, MI or GA should contact the terminals to find out where this "Recreational Fuel" is being distributed since not all Marathon stations are carrying it.

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Im on the gulf coast.. I could look to see who is selling similar gas here... Is this like the "heating oil vs. diesel debate"?

No, this is like the Ethanol vs. No-Ethanol debate.

Here are all the stations in TX:

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

[brads911sc]

you are missing the point.

are there other things in Auto fuel (like Techron, detergent packages) that is missing from Recreational Fuel? Is the formulation otherwise compatable/comparable?

I get that there is no ethanol. That is obvious.

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

No, this is like the Ethanol vs. No-Ethanol debate.

Here are all the stations in TX:

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

are there other things in Auto fuel (like Techron) that is missing from Recreational Fuel? Is the formulation otherwise compatable/comparable?

[MichiganMike]

Depends on the race gas you purchase. Here is Sunoco's Spec Sheet for 97+ for on road use:
260 Gold - Unleaded Race Fuels It states on the left side that they have a detergent additive in it. You can look through their other fuels on that site as well.

"Offroad use only fuel" may have Lead in it. Be aware.

Marathon states they use STP in all their branded fuels, so I suspect that Danny_Ocean received fuel with additive, just no ethanol.
http://www.marathonpetroleum.com/Products/Marathon_Brand_Gasolines/