Would you drop-ship your Air-Cooled 911 engine to be worked on?

[Schuey]

There are a few reasons I'm asking...you'll see once you read through the "what if's"

1) are there places that do this now, and if so how long does it take to do a rebuild?

2) how much is a typical STOCK rebuild? (I know "it depends") And of this rebuild how much are the typical new parts and the typical labor?

Now for the why...I'm thinking of opening a side shop with me funding the $$$ and doing the communication with the customer with another guy (he's worked on EVERYTHING expensive from true Shelby GT350's to Yenko Camaro's to serial #1 of a rare 50's corvette)...we'd had little to no overhead and we wouldn't be charging an arm/leg to do something...

Hence "the turn around time" thing...I imagine most of our clients wouldn't be driving their 911's in the winter so time may not be an issue then...it's more or less our passion and what we love to do...so I need to do some more research before this gets to the next stage...

Ideally stage one we'd buy an engine that needs to be redone, document everything via video, etc. and sell it with a core exchange for those that don't care about the "numbers matching 3.2 in '85 Carrera"

So tell me we're crazy, nuts, or to go for it...it makes me cry seeing a $10k bill for a 3.0 overhaul...so I'm assuming it's the inflated labor rates of these shops...but need to make sure...I know there are a lot of experts out there (Wayne ) so let's hear it...

I've got the money, place, a partner and the passion (along with Wayne's books ) so now it's just the next step in a 8 year thought process...

Thanks,

Kevin

[Dantilla]

If I needed a rebuild, I'd probably load the engine in the back of my truck and drop it off at John Walker's shop. Nice to have a guy of that caliber so close to me.

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable shipping the engine a long way. It would have to be a place with a sterling reputation before I'd consider it. (and if John Walker, Squire, Redmond European, Fordahl, yada yada were not so close.)

Just one guy's opinion....

[fintstone]

I really don't see how you would make any money charging much less than $10K considering the cost of parts. It is not like you are going to make your own. I priced the parts out at retail when I had mine built and it would have cost me more in parts to do the job myself that it cost to pay one of the best in the world to do it for me..

[steely]

This is just an opinion.
The "drop-ship" in your title throws me off. I think you'd need more experience locally first to build a rep. Will affect overhead of course. For instance, you cite experience, but ask how long a re-build takes. You could test your model by investing in an engine rebuild if you really have the $. Keep that passion but research like you're doing.

[andyt11]

I stripped my engine and delivered the block to someone with experience for the actual rebuild.

I don't think there is much money to be made. I had a bill for 7k and nearly 5k of it was parts and machining. He had 25 hours in it.

But yes, I'd ship. To the right guy.

[Grady Clay]

Kevin,

A key word here is “The Right Guy”.
Another is “Engine Dyno”.

While there are skilled builders that don’t have an engine dyno, they will do just fine reinstalling the engine and thoroughly testing and tuning it.

I would never send an engine off, have someone rebuild it and have it shipped back untested.
That is a recipe for an argument over who’s responsibility over a warranty issue.

Some use a ‘test stand’ that will allow an engine to run without load. That is not sufficient.
Being able to load the engine and get it fully up to temperature is critically important .
This allows proper ‘temperature cycling’ leading to the engine’s ‘first service’.

The ‘first service’ includes re-torquing the heads and rocker arm shafts, adjusting the valves and re-checking the cam timing, setting the timing at 6000 rpm and adjusting the carbs/MFI/CIS/DME.
Of course there is the possibility of curing any oil leak. (Never happens on a 911 rebuild )

Measuring the power output is useful but not necessary.

This allows you to get back a complete running engine and allows the builder confidence that everything is correct when it leaves his control.

No matter the care and effort, warranty-at-a-distance is difficult.
Consequently, your first effort is to interview and seek references on all the reasonably ‘local’ builders.

Be aware that there are some discredited builders who advertise heavily.
One in LA area (who’s initials are the same as Mickey Mouse) are known for criminal behavior.
A Pelican Search will enlighten you.


The youngest 911SC engine is now 28-years old.
You should expect a significant parts cost to bring the engine to close-to-new standards.
Baring a failure, the most significant single cost can be the set of pistons & cylinders (P&C).
That said, there are significant parts cost for the ‘must have’ parts in a rebuild.
These are clearly listed in Wayne Dempsey’s and Bruce Anderson’s books (you should have both and more).

A lot has been learned since these engines were new.
A skilled and experienced Porsche 911 builder will know all these ‘tricks’.
This is not a mystery. Almost everything they know (and you should know) is posted here on Pelican.

This brings me to DIY.
Consider rebuilding the engine yourself. It is not a mystery.
Yes, it will take buying (or borrowing or making) a few ‘special’ tools.
All of the ‘specialized operations’ are sub-contracted to specialists.
These include crankcase repair (unlikely on a 911SC), crankshaft and connecting rod inspection, reconditioning and repair, cylinder head reconditioning and more.
The engine was designed and built by mortals and can be repaired by you.

If you are concerned about taking your 911SC out of service for an extended period while you ‘take your time’, buy a running engine for temporary use.
A significant advantage DIY has over a workshop is you can stop work and find the ‘right’ answer, part or other.
A workshop must have the efficiency of start-to-finish projects.
That means having all the tools, parts, sub-contractors’ priority, sources – and skills.
The experienced Porsche professionals have this system, the others you must wait while they ‘figure it out’.


So…
Find the best builder (with an engine dyno) to send your engine to.
Or
Fine the best local builder to take your 911 to.
Or
DIY.

Best,
Grady

[Macroni]

Grady thanks for that very helpful piece of advice.

Original question yes I would drop ship. I do think your business model would be difficult to apply. Running a business is dealing with the unexpected and many times it has very little to do with the core compentency. Example..... Insurance...sexual harrasment training.....

[Grady Clay]

Originally Posted by Macroni

…
I do think your business model would be difficult to apply. Running a business is dealing with the unexpected and many times it has very little to do with the core compentency. Example..... Insurance...sexual harrasment training.....

Been there, done that for 20+ years (I retired 24+ years ago).
The ‘art & science’ of running a business is a good thread for OT.
I was just discussing the technical competence of a business necessary for the OP to achieve his goal.
There have been some stories of supposed ‘professionals’ shipping incomplete, unfinished engines for the owner to complete, install and tune.
As you might expect, the results are usually less than satisfactory.

As I said above, “…warranty-at-a-distance is difficult.” at best.

Who wants to have their 911 engine ‘rebuilt’ by someone far, far away who gives a discount for ‘no warranty’ and ships you back your engine untested?

Not me.

There are some VERY GOOD builders (some on this Forum) who I would trust to build an engine with the highest level of competency, ship back a ‘finished product’ and stand behind it.


Best,
Grady

[schumicat]

Yes, but only to MotorMeister.

[Rot 911]

The only thing I would add is what a couple of other posters have said, $10K is not out of line for a rebuild where the cases are split. 911 parts are getting very expensive.

[Matt Monson]

Having spent a fair bit of time in the "mail order" gearbox industry I will give you my two cents.

Your biggest barrier to entry will not be whether or not someone is willing to ship an engine. People ship engines to Jake Raby and Henry Schmidt all the time. Andial did mail order engines for years. See the caliber of names I am putting out there? Setting this business up as strictly mail order is cart before the horse. You will need to develop a track record before anyone will trust you.

When I left Carquip, after half a dozen years at the helm there, I went off on my own. I started a little cottage mail order operation called Phoenix Rennwerks. I ran the business out of my home garage, and had zero overhead. I went into it with a national reputation from my previous employment and with a nationally known gearbox builder at my disposal. However, if I had not been simultaneously manufacturing special ratio gearsets and other specialty race components for sale at wholesale and retail, I would have failed in the first six months. There's just not enough margins on complete units to survive as a builder unless you've got really high volume. Basiically to pull it off you've got to get fast.

You cite the labor part of it and the perception that labor rates are severely inflated and that you can beat the competition on the labor side of it. The places charging $100/hr in labor have decades of experience to back up that number. Yes, they have insurance, and rent, and payroll taxes and tools. But they've put in the time to learn the tricks, get it right, and not lose money on their work. I do suggest you buy a core engine and rebuild it and see how long it actually takes you. Then compare that to some rebuild quotes from other builders. Keep in mind that to be competitive, you're going to have to quote the same number of hours as other shops but at a lower rate.

I in no way mean to disrespect your partner's skillset or experience, but v8's are way way easier to build than air cooled 911 engines. The 911 engine is 2-3 more times more complicated. No matter how good he is, he's going to have a learning curve. Depending on how smart he is and how many engines you can bring in per year, that learning curve could take 2-3 years before he gets good at it. Can you financially ride out 2-3 lean years with builds going over quoted time without charging it off to the customer?

And don't forget the special tools. Even with a completely outfitted shop, you guys are going to need to invest a couple grand in Porsche special tools. While Wayne's DIY book gives you some ways to cut corners, there's a number of special tools that no professional would want to be without.

Lastly, there is the mail order aspect of it. Figure $500 in freight each way on a properly crated and insured engine. Can you beat the labor of others by $1000 and still make a profit? Because you'll only get the business if you can. Otherwise they'll take the engine to someone local. Even driving an hour or two hours each way with the engine in the back of a pickup truck is better in most people's eyes than shipping an engine. Also don't forget the cost of shipping an empty crate back and forth across the country. Figure $100-150 in dimensional weight each way. If you're going to provide a premium product, you'll want to be providing crates (another overhead cost). Strapping a core engine to a pallet is one thing. But once it's rebuilt and arguably worth $10,000 or more, the ONLY way to ship it is inside of a crate. So either you build crates and provide them empty up front to the customer OR they ship it in on a pallet and you ship it out in a crate, which you will either need to eat or charge a core charge on in able to get it returned to you for reuse with the next guy.

I suggest, as others have, that you start with getting a core and rebuilding. Track everything about the project, time, cost, etc. Then try to sell it. And get another core. And do another one. Start local. Work with guys in your local PCA chapter who you know personally and can develop a trusting relationship with. Again, figure 2-3 years to get known in the region before you even can consider going national with it and doing the mail order thing. Figure in all honesty, the mail order thing is a 5-10 year plan. It's not something you can just start up and people will trust you with their engines. You're going to have to get a reputation first and then the rest will come later.

[Schuey]

your input has been great and is what I expected...we've been toying around with getting a roller, backdating it and getting a salvaged 964 and going from there as well...our issue in our region (northern MN) is there is NO ONE...same for the ND region...I wasn't sure just how much the parts with a good case would be...

any more input would be great...I understand the "I'll have to build our rep." part; my main curiosity was in the cost effectiveness...

We probably will be better off starting with the roller car and a salvaged 3-3.6 engine and selling the finished project...I'd really like to specialize in the back-dating aspect of the 911...I'd love to do them to my 2 911's, but IMO they are too nice to do this too...I'd rather save onne than destroy one if that makes sense...plus if you don't deer hunt or ice fish up here, you're snowmobling/drinking or watching the NFL...I like doing the NFL part...plus I can DVR it and make some money on a passion we enjoy...

Thanks