To Pertronix or not ?
 

I'm thinking of replacing the points in the distributor with an Ignitor kit from Pertronix.

Apart from not having to deal with points again, what benefits (even small) can I expect ? Better cold starts ? Slightly better mileage ?

Installed the Pertronix about 10 years ago in my '74. One of the best upgrades I've made. Don't know if any improvement in starting/mileage etc. but never having to change and adjust points again is great.

I think I'll go that way too.

Not!

I removed the Pertronix from all 3 of my old cars. I found every cylinder had different ignition timing; cylinders varied by 6 degrees if I remember right. Junk. Stick with points or go with a system which will give ignition pulses 60deg (120really) apart.
Going back to points was an upgrade in driveability IMO.

Can you be more specific ?

Really!! Need more data
 

I have had a pertronix in my 1973 for 8 years and it is terrific. Engine runs great and never had a problem.

Give us some proof before you call this excellent product "Junk"

I totally disagree with you.

How did you measure the timing variation? I am very curious. Before I accuse you of techno babble or working for a competitor, I really would like to know how you did this measurement.

It does not add up to me. The cam in the distributor provides the triggering through the Hall effect system in the Pertronix. How is this cam off by 6 degrees? I don't get it.

Points are in proper timing for less time than they are out! Pertronix keeps system in time and needs no maintenance. They are a godsend to points cars.

Installation is easy. You only need to add switched 12vdc to power the module.

Please give us all technical specifics including the model of Pertronix you tested.

Prebordao; Find someone with a pertronix unit and take a timing light with adjustable timing dial. Connect to all 6 wires and spot using the marks on the pulley. Porsche marked for all cyl. Note the variance. Alternatively find someone with an old distributor machine to test before you install in the car. The fault with these lies in the fact the 6 magnets are of varying strength and will trigger at slightly different distances to the hall effect sensor. I swapped the magnets inside to diagnose to cause of the problem and the variance followed the specific magnets. Lead to slightly reduced power and lumpy idle.
Properly installed and lubed points on a good distributor will give years of service with the CDI system.


DICK: You must have awaken on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I will not reply to such a hostile post. You should learn people can disagree in this world....

"The cam in the distributor provides the triggering through the Hall effect system in the Pertronix."

Which has the reliability problem of the Hall Effect semiconductor being in a high
temperature environment. With the Bosch CDI system, the ignition points only
switch a very low current and the points basically last forever. So there's no
real benefit to using the Pertronix and a downside because of the reliability
issue, i.e. another ignition element that can fail.

Pertronix
 

I have had issues with these from street cars to vintage 2.0 race cars that run as single plug, from starting up and running sounding fine but will not load on the engine dyno period that was a stock 69 "S" ! ended up putting the points back in and it performed as it should, retested pertronix again same issue, another customer installed them in his FIA 2.0 car at an event at the Glen and it seemed "Flat" all weekend, we put it back on the dyno when he returned and it was down almost 15 HP, reinstalled points and power came back, I am not a fan of points by any means because of the constant attention they need but that is not good to see that . Just my 2 cents

Mike Bruns JBRacing.com

I am another satisfied user of the Pertronix, but I can certainly understand that the accuracy of the cylinder-to-cylinder timing is dependent on the accuracy of the location and strength of the individual magnets imbeded in the spinning magnet cap, as well as the temperature of the Hall Effect transducer. That being said, Pertronix must know this, too, and their production process specs must control these variables to an acceptable degree (no pun). It would be helpful if Pertronix shared these specs.

I've never owned a Porsche with points, however, I have replaced points with Pertronix ignitor on several other vehicles with outstanding results. For what it's worth.

Think I'll wait...

I think calling a product "junk" is pretty hostile! Especially with no supporting data in the post.

I plan to test my Pertronix to see if I can duplicate your results.

"Properly installed and lubed points on a good distributor will give years of service with the CDI system." I never found this to be true. Properly installed and lubed my 2.7 would be off song in 7000 miles or less. Points don't give years of trouble free service.......unless you rack up few miles.

"Properly installed and lubed my 2.7 would be off song in 7000 miles or less."

Very negligible, and not worth changing to add another ignition element that
could/will fail! The device not only has the Hall device but a power switching
transistor (and other parts) used to drive a coil, e.g. Bosch blue, directly.

I don't want to add fire to this... but every modern car that we drive has thousands of transistors (inside IC's of course) and other components. It's true that sometimes they fail, but fortunately it is quite rare.
I don't think that adding 3-4 additional components to our early cars would detract significantly from their reliability. And the CDI already has a few components, so we're not starting from 0.

Just my 2ç

Crane Optical Trigger is a better choice in my opinion.

However, the position of the optical window can be a concern with individual timing. This can be adjusted out quite easily should you desire tuning to the nth degree. I did.

The system works on a simple LED and photodiode. extremely reliable.

I found the timing change more than negligible. I could really sense it.

I found it well worthwhile adding and another device, and the failure rate for me is "0".

I have had no problems in 8 years and carry a set of points in just in case. You could carry a spare Petronix for as little as they cost!

Does this mean the block that rubs on the cam never wears? That is where the problem comes in. Not the points burning.

Believe me the dwell changes as the rubbing bock wears, which changes timing. If the dwell goes to "0" to car stops running. I have had points do that on my 911 years ago.

I am not really trying to be argumentative, Just that my personal experience in driving a 1973 Porsche with and without points for over 130,000 miles is that points basically DO NOT last forever.

The upside to a Pertronix conversion is no maintenance. The upside is no reliability issues.

All of this in my multi-year and 100,000+ mile experience.

"I don't think that adding 3-4 additional components to our early cars would detract significantly from their reliability. And the CDI already has a few components, so we're not starting from 0."

Yes, but NOT inside of a hot engine part (distributor) and exposed to 30KV - 40KV
of high voltage. That's why Porsche on the later 911SC used a magnetic pickup
in the distributor, i.e. just a simple coil of wire without any temperature problems.
Remember, most all commercial semiconductors are only rated at 70C max, and
much more than that is common for an air cooled engine. Many of the newer engines
with cam position sensors (Hall Effect) have high failure rates versus the magnetic
pickups of the RPM sensors.

Jamie-Can you share what you did to the Crane Trigger to address the issue with variable timing?

Loren-Can you share your thoughts on the Crane trigger and their ignition systems in general?

FWIW I've had good success with Crane and I am about to install another one of their trigger and CD units.

thanks,

"Can you share your thoughts on the Crane trigger and their ignition systems in general?"

An optical trigger is even more temp sensitive than the Hall Effect. Don't know anything
about Crane ignition, i.e. need some data posted.

A few points of clarification:

1: I spoke with a engineer at Pertronix a few years ago and he stated they never have actually tested the individual cylinder variance. They have no equipment to do so.
2: When I stated the points last for many years, I was referring to the point replacement. I do lightly clean the contacts (30 second job) and set timing (1 min) every year. Good idea to annually open the distributor and lube it anyways (often ignored item).
3: To fully evaluate ignition systems, remember it should be tested at the entire operating range. Those who have raced cars here will recognize the importance of the car having full power at the beginning and end of the race (HOT), (I personally want my street performance optimized also). The Pertronix also changes properties with temp.
4: The Crane system is one I have considered testing/installing, as it is a good design. A good crank triggered ignitions are obviously superior to all, if it has proper tuning capability.
5: Although many manufactures have used (including Bosch) Hall effect in the distributor, none I have seen have used multiple magnets implemented like the pertronix. They instead used a more robust design which will maintain correct cylinder-cylinder timing while accounting for real world material variances.
6: Pertronix is suitable for it's original intended market, Commercial and industrial.

BTW, what would be the best lubricant for points ?

Bosch makes a good point lube in a tube or just use what comes in a set of points (you will use 1/50 of the small blister pack per application).
Do a search on distributor lubrication to understand the proper lube and place to lube the other parts of the distributor.

Pertronix will give you two things:

1. It will free you from the enormous burden of spending 10 minutes every 6,000 miles to adjust points.

2. It will leave you stranded when it fails suddenly and without warning because it's a cheap taiwanese toy.

Pertronix is purely a convenience thing, for those unwilling or unable to spend 10 minutes to adjust points. There is no gain whatsoever in performance, cold starts, or fuel economy. Zero. In fact, your performance and mpg might even decline, as I've seen pertronix shaft wheels where the magnets are not even equally spaced!! Talk about poor quality control.

The Crane optical trigger is simple. It is an LED and a photodiode housed in a plastic part. The LED will illuminate the photodiode. A small trigger wheel interrupts the light path and provides the 12V "effective" square wave that will simulate the points opening.

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...715-0020_w.jpg

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...700-2231_w.jpg


I have had one in my targa for more than 10 years. No issues.

I even converted my SC distributor to one to trigger a Crane Ignition when I converted to twin plug and when the Bosch CDI crapped out on me.

If one needs to adjust timing on the trigger wheel it takes a flat file inside the "window". first measure the timing offset at each individual cylinder. Then adjust all to the most "advanced". Now reset the timing correctly for the optimized trigger signal.

The reality is that I only had to clean up two slots due to leftover sprue flashing from the injection molding process.

I have a pertronix. First one I purchased was DOA. Replacement (sent rapidly) has worked without any trouble. Customer service was very helpful and responsive. They even overnighted the replacement to me at no charge!

I have not tested timing on each cylinder. Might be worth trying someday, but at the moment I like the simplicity.

My pertronix is driving an MSD 6AL with a blaster 2 coil. No issues with entire setup.

Good luck!

-Dan

What a fool I have been!
 

Wow! I have learned so much from this Pertronix post.

What a fool I have been to love my Pertronix Ignitor II!!!

I will either remove my Pertronix, or go "in closet" that I have one if I leave it in.

I have learned that Pertonix:

Is off by as much as 6 degrees cylinder to cylinder
Is made in Taiwan.
Has no QC.
Don't mark polarity [mine has a read and a black wire but....does that mean something?]
Go up in smoke if you leave it on without running.
Have magnets randomly placed in the rotor.
Have varying magnet strengths.
914 guys hate them.

I have also learned that:
Points last forever if properly lubed.
Total time to adjust dwell and points is 10 minutes.
Adjusting points takes a few seconds.
Adjusting points every 5000 miles is not big deal, and a ritual I should love.
New technology has no place in an old Porsche.

Now I am going to have to buy a new timing light with a degree dial and test each plug wire to see the advance variations for myself. I will test Pertronix and then points to see if there is a variation cylinder to cylinder in each.

I may have to go to a shutter window Crane setup, of maybe a crank fire system.........

Not sure I can sleep at night knowing that I was fooled by my reliable, good running Pertronix. I will have to test out all the claims and find the truth before I can get another good night's sleep.

wow. :eek:

I may need to remove that from my vintage volvo motor.

Here my opinion: My Pertronix has, to all appearences, performed flawlessly for about ten years on two cars. No timing fluctuations or changes over time. Of course, I don't know about cylinder to cylinder variation, but the Porsche revs to redline and beyond without hesitation. I have received nothing more and nothing less than Pertronix promised.

For the reasonable price, I think I'll try it... a learning experience.

BTW, is this the way it's supposed to be tied into a CDI car ?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1325786415.jpg

But where were these opinions when others posted about Pertronix? There have been many posts over the years, and suddenly all this "truth" comes out.

Where has all this information been hiding?

All those happy and satisfied Pertronix customers have been tricked for all this time.

XANAX is not strong enough......my world is coming apart!!

That is the right diagram. Basically you are adding switched 12 VDC [red wire in the diagram] to power the module.

The black wire is the "points" wire like the stock system.

So, I need to add a new wire from the ignitor to the cd box ?

YES, you do have to add a wire to the Pertronix as in the diagram.

The black wire is the "points" wire and goes to the same place on the CD box as the normal points wire.

The only new wire is switched 12 volts DC to power the Pertronix unit. You can get it this power from the 12VDC that powers the CD box or anywhere else that energizes when you switch the key on.

This diagram shows getting the 12vdc [red] from the CD power connector. That is a good place to get it.

The first failed pertronix (the black one in the photo) was an ignitor I. It ran for 15 minutes. I may have left the key on for 10 minutes while wiring the AC unit. My bad, I wouldn't think that would ever happen in the real world. After talking to Pertronix I upgraded to an Ignitor II with thermal protection in case the key is left on. The second failed pertronix was DOA. The third was also an ignitor II and came with the recommended flame thrower coil. With the exact resistance as the coil I used on the first two failed units by the way. The objective for purchasing the recommended coil was to use all pertronix stuff on the third unit and to confirm what I already suspected. Well, in Pertronix's defense, they did send me a unit that ran for about two days. I turned the motor off to replace the water pump and when I went to start it again, the ignition was dead. A quick test revealed a third failed unit.

The distributor was set up perfectly from the beginning and well within Pertronix tolerances of min .10 max .60. The voltage at the coil was battery voltage, all wires are new with excellent grounds. I've heard some people question proper installation, well... I call BS. The fact is, at least as far as I'm concerned, Pertronix point eliminators are junk. I understand many have had good luck with them but to ignore the failures and expect that they are reliable is a stretch. The time I have wasted with this product would have replaced points 100 times. The car has not even seen the road yet. Pertronix will not get the chance to leave me stranded. The resistor wire went back on and the new 10.00 points and condenser are running like they should. :mad:

The picture shows 3 bad Pertronix Ignitors.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1330324441.jpg

I was going to start another post but this one seem quite appropriate for me to throw my experience log onto.

The back story. I had the engine/transmission out for some trans work. Syncros, dog teeth, blocks blah, blah, blah. I am quite happy with my transmission now, my bank account, not so much. Thought I would use the engine out time to do some tidying? up. I did things like clean, alternator brushes (interesting in its own right but thats for another show) and I thought that I would install a breakerless pick-up in the distributor. Easy to do on the stand and an upgrade I thought.

My personal verdict: Money well wasted! (ignitor II for those interested)

Issue 1: My idle would hang up at about 2000 before slowly descending to normal. I set it at about 1050. I know 900 is spec but my engine seems to respond better off idle when idle speed is set a little higher than spec. And this is all tach indicated rpm. Actual rpm ??? Tach is probably pretty close. To me this acted like a vacuum leak. I searched quite extensivly, no leak found. I did find that my throttle linkage was a tad long not letting the throttle plate close completely which could explain idle issues. Adjusted that, no help.

Issue 2: I had a small miss at 5500. I say small because it at times seemed like a tach itself issue not an actual miss. At times it was noticable but the engine would then pick up and pull to the rev limiter no problem. This one had me some what perplexed. I first noticed in second gear but upon later examination I found it happened at exactly the same rpm in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. To add to this, yesterday after about a 45 min. ride and a 30min. heat soak (ambient about 75) I got considerable missing up to 4000 rpm then it went away. A later 5min. stop had no issues on restart. When I got home I gave the car another 30 rest and the missing returned.

Decision made at that (poor pun coming) point. I replaced the Ignitor II with stock points and all the aforementioned issues are gone. My conclusion, points it is. Yes I know the maintenance issues. I will deal with them.

Possibles?: A bad unit. Not a real good way to check one out. No I do not want another one. Poor installation. Perhaps but I think my automotive experience coupled with my aviation avionics experience make that hard for me to believe. I did all the work on the engine stand, if the install was poorly done why the 5500 miss in three gears. I would have tried it in 4th but I did not have a safe place to do the lab work. I could be a hack, so enjoy your next flight. I am not perfect but I think I am good enough. I do not think that I screwed this one up.

One observation I had was about the timing differences between the two schemes. With points my distributor is moved to almost one end of the "slot". Still times out properly so very little concern on my part. With the pertronix unit the distributor has to be moved to the other end of the slot to time out properly. What this all means? I do not know. I do not care.

So thats my story and only my story.

Probably a bad unit... At first i was thinking maybe it was heat related but doesn't seem so.
I have a powerspark unit for 6 months, so far, so good.

a bad unit is my opinion. do I trust another? NO!

the odd issues (idle and 5500 miss) lead me to live with the maintenance issues of points until I cannot get them any more. Or they become so expensive i'm driven to buy another type of pickup. I am really kind of dissapointed. I spent a great deal of time trying to fabricate a superb install just to rip it out after 200 miles.

I could have bought beer with that money. Oh the humanity!!!