'87 Carrera No Cranky No More

[llangston1]

Ok I just returned from a 4 day Porsche road tour from Houston to the Big Bend park area. Car ran fine all the time until I get home. After unloading the car I go to crank it to move it into the garage and it no Cranky no more. All the gauge lights come on and the gauge needles move when I turn the key but the starter will not engage at all. I checked all the fuses in the front and in the rear and nothing is blown. Where do I start trying to debug this problem? Thank goodness it waited until I got home. It cranked fine about 10 minutes before I got home after I got stopped by a local cop for you know what. But that is another story. Any suggestions from the forum?

[rnln]

I am thinking of the first 2 posibilities, the starter or the start trigger wire (yellow). It is easier to measure the voltage on the yellow wire than to get down to the start to hammer it. Can you get a voltage metter to meassure the voltage on this wire, while cranking it, with this problem is still present?
hint: look into the big connector on the left of the engine bay. You will find this yellow wire. Usually, it should be closed to 11 or 12 volts while cranking.

[Bob Kontak]

Turn on your lights and beep your horn. If they look bright and horn sounds strong check the battery connections first thing then move into what rnin says.

Charged battery should be over 12.5 volts when checked, without engine running.

[DRACO A5OG]

+1 check the connections, even if they look good clean, polish and reconnect, especially the ground to the trans.

After that tap on the solenoid section of the starter and try starting her.

I would then try jumping it with another car to see if the battery is strong enough. If you have to move into the garage push jump start her.

[dshepp806]

Some voltage measurements are in order,,..battery to the starter.

BEST!

Doyle

[llangston1]

Ok I just tried to start the car and it started fine. Just like it always has. So what sort Of temperature related problem could have happened? During the 4 hour trip home today it started every time we stopped. It only stopped working after I made it home. Then after sittIng in the driveway for several hours it works fine. I am totally confused. Suggestions?

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by llangston1

Ok I just tried to start the car and it started fine. Just like it always has. So what sort Of temperature related problem could have happened? During the 4 hour trip home today it started every time we stopped. It only stopped working after I made it home. Then after sittIng in the driveway for several hours it works fine. I am totally confused. Suggestions?

llangston,

Very much interested to know what caused that non-start problem. I'll be driving an '87 Carrera this spring from Philadelphia to Carmel, CA for delivery. The car (motronic) is new to me and my familiarity with 911 cars is limited to SC's (CIS). Things like these really get my attention in anticipation for this 3500 miles trek. BTW, your car did not like to come home yet and longing for more driving time.........and you're a lucky man, it happened in your drive-way.

Tony

[DRACO A5OG]

Hey Tony,

Get a spare DME relay, which controls the fuel pump.

The grounds for the starting system is the same as your SC, raise her and make sure ground at trans and all starter connects are nice and clean. Heck clean them even if they look good.

Before you shut down for a rest, let her idle for a minute to allow the oil to settle down.

Also like your SC, push the clutch in when you start for the first time and after rest. This will put less strain on the starter.

Jim
In a pinch, call me

Oh yeah, like your SC, check the front wheel bearings

[DRACO A5OG]

OP, I still say it is your ground & connections, The long drive may have jarred them loose or coated with road debris.

[llangston1]

I will check all the connections this weekend when I can get it up on some jackstands.

[rnln]

Exactly what happened to me years ago and was killing me for years. Someone suggested me what I suggested you above but I didn't takle it enough in this area. Instead, I went for starter and wiring down there instead. At the end, I found the problem by measuring the voltage everywhere during the time it happened and quick enough before it settle back to normal. And replace the yellow wire from the ignition to the big connector (on the right of the engine bay). No more problem until now (several years)

Reading down further, I see that what you are trying to do is the same at what I was years ago (I'll try it this weekends) and it might not work, because you are trying it when it's not happaning. You have to mearure the voltage while it is happening. What I would suggest you to do is to connect a short pieace of wire everywhere you want to measure, then leave them there. When the car is having problem, take out your metter and measure those points right away. Then when it's back to normal, remeasure them. You will see where the problem is.
If you search for "yellow wire" and "starter", "starting problem" under my name. You will see part of the trend I went through and many others' responses with same problem.

Originally Posted by llangston1

Ok I just tried to start the car and it started fine. Just like it always has. So what sort Of temperature related problem could have happened? During the 4 hour trip home today it started every time we stopped. It only stopped working after I made it home. Then after sittIng in the driveway for several hours it works fine. I am totally confused. Suggestions?

[85carrera]

perhaps the solenoid on the starter is getting stuck from the heat. My starter slowly but surely died a slow death after long drives. I either had to slam the door hard enough to knock the solenoid loose or wait till it cooled off. It started at only like 2 hour drives, then 1 hour, then 30 minute, then 10 minute then i replaced the starter. hehe. pretty easy job. you have to hug the transmission. Forces you to trust your jackstands.

[CharlesJones]

I had the exact same symptons - a sporadic no crank, which just got more frequent until I got stranded at work with no crank at all. When the fault was sporadic I would sometimes have a no crank situation, but then if I left the car for 20 minutes and then try again, it would crank fine! And every time it wouldn't crank the car would always bump start fine of course.

To find the find the fault I did a voltage drop test as others have suggested. I soldered two crocodile clips to long lengths of wire so I could have the multimeter next to me on the passenger seat whilst I turned the ignition key - that way I could test for voltage drop across the starter whilst still sitting in the car.

In my case I found the voltage drop (and hence the fault) across the cable connector to the battery terminal. The terminal and connector looked absolutely fine, but meauring between the connector (the bit which connects cable to battery terminal) and cable I found a voltage drop. I simply snipped the connector off and replaced with a new one (which cost about 5 euro) and my problem was completely fixed!

[Dave Colangelo]

When it does not crank can you hear the starter relay click on?
I can think of a few issues, one is a starter relay that is on its way out, the other is dirty contacts in the starter motor. I have had the issue with other cars, where part of the area that makes contacts with the brushes gets dirty and if the motor stops on that place it wont conduct very well.

Regards
dave

[kidrock]

Old Bosch starter = heat soak issues. When they get hot, the solenoid takes a temporary crap. It happens all the time. As we get closer to summer, there will be more posts on this BBS about "no start" conditions relating to the starter.

Can be solved 2 ways: tap on solenoid while a buddy turns over ignition (car out of gear!!!!), or, replace with newer-style "hi-torque" starter.

[teenerted1]

is your coil starting to crap out?

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Dave Colangelo

When it does not crank can you hear the starter relay click on?
I can think of a few issues, one is a starter relay that is on its way out, the other is dirty contacts in the starter motor. I have had the issue with other cars, where part of the area that makes contacts with the brushes gets dirty and if the motor stops on that place it wont conduct very well.

Regards
dave

In addition to the above:
When you are having the issue turn on the headlights and try to start it. You should see the headlights dim to some extent if the starter is drawing power. If it doesn't then there is an issue with the solenoid or the wiring/switching that feeds the solenoid.

[llangston1]

A local PCA friend said check the cables and possibly remove the starter and clean it good. My Bentley says I have to remove the rear stab bar and drop the tranny 6" to remove the starter. Is that correct or are there any trIcks to avoid all that? I am leery of lowering the tranny having never done that. If I do lower it should I look at replacing the tranny mounts?

[grendiers]

My similar experience boiled down to the positive battery cable was bad. I piggybacked another one as a temporary solution, which has become somewhat permanent! The battery was getting an inconsistent charge from the alternator. 12 volts sometimes, other times, close to 13.

[rnln]

When we worked on my starter, I tried to remove the starter without lowering the tranny for over a day. The next day, I had to lower the front end of the tranny around 4".
Replace tranny mounts? If they are bad. I was in the search for these years ago, no replacement part except you want to replace the whole cross member = expensive.