High Milaege Targa Chassis, what are the problems?

[Mike Kast]

I am coming out of the closet, I am selling my car and have been avoiding pelican in my sale and have come to realize it was a huge mistake, but that is not my question.
Although now that I am out of the closet I am sure I will have a tale to tell... Anyway, this old 79 Targa has 230,000 miles. Leland Pate did a ton of work on it, I did a ton of work on it... clearly it is not a concourse vehicle, it is a driver. A very nice one at that. It is priced fairly as far as I can conclude. I have had a number of people who turn up their nose as soon as they see the miles.
And honestly when I bought the car it scared me too. So I advertised without the miles just as Leland did. But who am I kidding? And why and I kidding them? And really, what is the issue with miles on a 33 year old car? If everything has been gone through what can go wrong?
Bottom line! Is there a life expectancy on a Targa?
There are certainly an infinite amount of variables but an average driven car with no accidents or rust. A typical garage kept Targa... Can it roll a million miles or more?
Thank you...
I am so happy to be back here writing!
No fear! I am a seller! uhgggg! I love this car too much. How do we heal from this experience?

[Targa Me]

My Targa has 237k on it and is my DD.
Just upgrade the suspension parts, bushing, etc and you'll be fine.

[timchar]

Mike, I don't see any problems at all... 40 k on rebuild, car has been attended to appropriately. The miles wouldn't scare me. I think you are very reasonably priced as well. I'm sure I'm the minority in this opinion. I purchased a higher mileage 86 carrera coupe last Sept, had around 175 k on it and about 25 k on rebuild. It was properly cared for and is probably a 7-10 interior/exterior. Leaks no oil and uses no oil. I would buy your car before I would buy a 100 k car with no rebuild any day. Good luck, Tim

[Grady Clay]

Mike,

I would not hesitate to buy a ‘quarter-million-mile’ 911 IF all the systems were refurbished as necessary, ahead of failure and ‘wearing out’.
Critical are rust and prior crash repair.

Even if a Galvanized 911 is garaged regularly, the climate and road use have a huge influence.
A 911 always driven in nice weather, no road salt exposure and garaged here in Colorado or NM, AZ, etc. (very low humidity and high altitude) will last almost forever.
If a 911 (even Galvanized) is driven with road salt exposure and ‘put away wet’, there will be chassis rust.
The question then becomes “How much?”

Yes, a Targa chassis is more critical to chassis degradation because of the lack of the coupe roof structure.
A simple test is to note the fit of the Targa top and doors sitting on the road wheels compared jacked up at various angles.
If you can re-fit the top properly and have the doors open & close normally when the 911 has one wheel jacked way up (almost balanced on two diagonal tires) then the chassis is probably still close to new function.
(Early Targas won’t pass this test – some when new.)


As our cars age and there are ‘bare tub’ restorations, it is increasingly important to have complete and detailed documentation of the entire history.
Post your and Lealand’s maintenance and repair history.
That should pretty-well show the current condition.

I don't know the sale price.
Keeping in mind the common “Every 911 is a $20,000 car”, you could look at possible future expenses (as a perspective buyer would) and price accordingly.

Best,
Grady

[Ray-1]

I know if you advertise the sale of your car is areas of the country where you can't normally find a Porsche, that it will sell regardless of how many miles are on it. Trying to sell your car where people have lots of options in buying different P-cars may make it more difficult to sell, especially when there are lots of lower mileage cars. Your car could have a million miles on it and it would sell in Northern Idaho. Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck with your sale.

[Mike Kast]

Thank you Grady. Are you saying if I jack up one wheel of a targa and the doors do not operate the same as they would on level ground that the chassis has problems? If that is what you are saying I would dispute. Hence the term flexible flier...But that is why I posed the question.
Have you ever seen a Targa split in two? Like the love bug? The rear comes in first and the front end in second

[Mike Kast]

hell, I keep getting Germans from Germany. Aren't there any old 911's in Germany? The amount of work that goes into selling it to someone who cant look at it directly is worth at least a grand.
Jump through 10,000 hoops and do a cartwheel while you hold your breadth. Time is money. Maybe I am just an impatient *****.

[_Remi]

240k miles targa here, no problem

[Grady Clay]

Mike,

Yes, I have seen (early) 911 (and 912) Targas torn in half in very serious crashes.
I have some pictures I’ll try and find.
I even have a picture of me sitting in the seat in the back half of a new-ish 914, holding the steering wheel of the front half.

I won’t describe the ‘diagonal wheel’ test as definitive.
However, it is a good indicator.

Another even more subjective test is to try and note the difference in handling with the Targa top firmly latched compared to the top stowed in the trunk.
My street 914-6 (no cage) has noticeable difference with the top firmly latched.
Many who track their Targas swear by having the top latched firmly.


Back to the question at hand:
Convince the perspective buyer that your 911 is the same condition as one with 75K mi.
Show the facts.

If you have a German buyer, have them have their representative pay for it (on your local US bank) and take delivery at your convenience.

Again, I see no problem buying a 'quarter-million-mile' 911 IF....

Best,
Grady

[Chuck.H]

Since the Targa's rely so much on the rocker boxes for strength, I'd just make sure to find a rust-free one. Mine is still tight after 300k miles.

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 332k miles

[Dave Colangelo]

150K on mine and its still going strong. My doors have issues opening when jacked up as Grady says but I dont see a handling issues with it that being said I am not the most experienced of drivers and most likely could not tell the difference in little handling changes. These cars are old they have miles, its all about records, if you have them, your chance of sale is much higher. I would not buy a 200K car that had never been serviced, but I would buy a 500K car that had routine documented maintenance and and a a top end job or 3.

Regards
Dave

[Chuck.H]

The jacking up/ door issues is a good test, I have some real world data based on some cars that have been on my lift:

89 TL Targa - door gap changes, doors slightly harder to open/close
92 Mustang COUPE - doors will not open (this one amazed me)
01 Mercedes SL500 convertible - can't tell the difference, doors open close perfect

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 332k miles

[Mike Kast]

A good test? I don't understand. that only concludes flex. Not actual structural fatigue. It may be a problem and it may not. Perhaps the Mustang was actually closer to manufactures specs than the Porsche was. It is anecdotal.
I am a little surprised there is not more actual science about this topic since it seems to be the big Targa negative. I was expecting to see a vast array of dizzying charts and graphs that made no sense to me
I can understand the potential benefits of a low miles car. The doors have been opened and closed less, every switch has been touched less, the seats have not been sat in as much and the body itself has not been stressed. The paint is nicer? Maybe
Everything has been used less.
But everything having been used less also means moss has possibly grown on the stone. Rubber is dry rotted, locks and latches don't work right. If the engine has not been run to warm and red lined fairly often the motor is probably going to be a dog. Fluids have sat and gotten old. Is sitting a good thing for a 911?
Hell, the rubber centered clutch might even work. It could be a museum piece.
After having had this car now for 10 years I am sort of amused about what peoples expectations are. I own a 33 year old car. It is a hot rod race car. It is a car. It is a really fun car but it is just a car.
But I do know, you can get yourself in a lot of trouble with a dog high miles or low...

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by Mike Kast

hell, I keep getting Germans from Germany. Aren't there any old 911's in Germany? The amount of work that goes into selling it to someone who cant look at it directly is worth at least a grand.
Jump through 10,000 hoops and do a cartwheel while you hold your breadth. Time is money. Maybe I am just an impatient *****.

About German cars in general: Most Germans drive their cars pretty much daily under often harsh conditions. Short distances, rain snow and salt everywhere! Also insurance and licensing does not depend on age of car, so it is as expensive as a new car. There are fewer Germans who can afford the luxury of a second car for pleasure only and work on it because garages are smaller or they park in public garages in apartment buildings. Therefore cars wear out and get discarded much sooner than cars from the US particularly the south and west.

In short, the supply of well preserved classic cars is substantially larger here than over there. In addition Germans get tax, insurance and relief from pollution requirements for "H-license" historic cars: Cars that are 30 years or older and mostly in original condition.

[Hugh R]

My 84 Targa is a CA car and has zero rust, I mean zero. If I jack it up the doors bind a little. Just saying.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

My 84 Targa is a CA car and has zero rust, I mean zero. If I jack it up the doors bind a little. Just saying.

My understanding is that some flexing is not a sign of structure disintegration. Targas and Cabriolets can never be as rigid as cars with the structural roof acting as a brace. But flexing is not necessarily a problem. Just watch airplane wings in a turbulence!

[FJ40runr]

Originally Posted by porwolf

My understanding is that some flexing is not a sign of structure disintegration. Targas and Cabriolets can never be as rigid as cars with the structural roof acting as a brace. But flexing is not necessarily a problem. Just watch airplane wings in a turbulence!

Seriously, unless someone can produce a showroom-stock, no-miles example of a targa that the doors open on while jacked as they do while on the ground I'm not even remotely convinced it isn't inherent to the chassis.

Tests could be done to quantify all of this (and experience could potentially be enough to throw a red flag on a badly fatigued chassis), but if you're going to that end to check a chassis you should either buy another car or get over yourself.